From: David Wright on
In article <2e04d$47506a61$d8fea291$10138(a)PRIMUS.CA>,
Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku(a)trends.ca> wrote:
>
>"Vaccine-man" <ziggittes(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:53321117-4f36-4eac-b278-b3c360c9d96c(a)g30g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> On Nov 27, 2:11 pm, "Yuri Kuchinsky" <y...(a)trends.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> There's no evidence that this quote from Sabin is incorrect. I'm sorry it
>>> doesn't fit into your world view, but it's not my fault...
>>>
>>> Yuri.
>>
>> There is plenty of evidence that he didn't say it
>
>Where is the evidence that he didn't say it?
>
>> (or if he did, it is
>> taken out of context. This is a person who *until his dying day*
>> promoted vaccination against vaccine-preventable diseases. How could
>> he have possible made the comment you have asserted?
>>
>> Once again, can you provide the full text of this supposed
>> presentation that Dr. Sabin gave? Otherwise, you should admit that you
>> don't have any first hand evidence that this statement was ever made.
>
>So far, we only get your _opinion_ that he didn't say it. That's not good
>enough.

All we have, contrariwise, is your opinion that he did, which isn't
good enough either.

On the other hand, we have the clear fact that it would have made
little sense for him to say it, especially since he continued to work
on vaccines for the rest of his life.

Well, we'll hope that the Sabin Institute gets back to me or Pete
Bowditch before long.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"Saddam Hussein was a bad man, connected with some incredibly dangerous
people: Cheney, Rumsfeld, George Galloway." -- Marcus Brigstocke
From: David Wright on
In article <89b14f55-285a-4e55-b100-ccc5ac4eabea(a)o6g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
Vaccine-man <ziggittes(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Nov 30, 12:35 pm, "Yuri Kuchinsky" <y...(a)trends.ca> wrote:
>
>> during a 1962 U.S. Congressional hearing, Dr. Bernard Greenberg, head of the
>> Department of Biostatistics for the University of North Carolina School of
>> Public Health, testified that cases of polio not only increased after
>> mandatory vaccinations --up 50% from 1957 to 1958, and up 80% from 1958 to
>> 1959 -- but that the statistics were deliberately manipulated by the Public
>> Health Service to give the opposite impression.
>
>Can you provide the reference to the complete text of Dr. Greenberg's
>testimony?

I strongly doubt it. This supposed testimony by Greenberg has been
brought up before, in 2005 (and earlier), on m.h.a.

At the time, I wrote:

> I just tried to track this one down. No luck. There was a Bernard
> Greenberg at UNC in biostatistics, that much is true, but whether he
> said what they say he did, and what *else* he might have said, is not
> revealed, nor is it revealed whether anyone else might have rebutted
> his testimony. You can find the claims on hundreds of web pages, but
> all they do is cite each other. I won't believe this one till someone
> cranks up original sources. In addition, if Greenberg did testify
> about this, how come nobody else did? It's a cinch that the anti-vax
> people would be citing it up the wazoo if someone else had.

Mark Probert wrote this in the same thread:

> Quite right. A Google Scholar search found this:

> Your search - polio author:Bernard author:Greenberg - did not match
> any articles.

> I did do a search on the number of the bill, HR10541, as it seemed
> somewhat high. It means that during that session of Congress, 10541
> bills had been submitted and indexed. If that number had been reached
> during the 1994-2005 period, I would have had at least those hits.

> The Library of Congress has no record.

> http://search.loc.gov:8765/query.html?col=loc&sc=0&ws=0&la=en&qm=0&st...

> I also checked GPOAccess from 1994 through 2005.

> http://www.gpoaccess.gov/crecord/search.html

> hr10541 does not occur in the database.

> I then did a search at

> http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/multidb.cgi

> and found:

> hr10541 does not occur in the database.

The relevance of HR 10541 is that it's usually claimed that Greenberg
was testifying about such a bill.

Also, polio cases dropped like a rock starting in 1955; the idea that
they were surging in 1957 and 1958 is absurd.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"Saddam Hussein was a bad man, connected with some incredibly dangerous
people: Cheney, Rumsfeld, George Galloway." -- Marcus Brigstocke
From: Rudy Canoza on
David Wright wrote:
> In article <2e04d$47506a61$d8fea291$10138(a)PRIMUS.CA>,
> Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku(a)trends.ca> wrote:
>> "Vaccine-man" <ziggittes(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:53321117-4f36-4eac-b278-b3c360c9d96c(a)g30g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Nov 27, 2:11 pm, "Yuri Kuchinsky" <y...(a)trends.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's no evidence that this quote from Sabin is incorrect. I'm sorry it
>>>> doesn't fit into your world view, but it's not my fault...
>>>>
>>>> Yuri.
>>> There is plenty of evidence that he didn't say it
>> Where is the evidence that he didn't say it?
>>
>>> (or if he did, it is
>>> taken out of context. This is a person who *until his dying day*
>>> promoted vaccination against vaccine-preventable diseases. How could
>>> he have possible made the comment you have asserted?
>>>
>>> Once again, can you provide the full text of this supposed
>>> presentation that Dr. Sabin gave? Otherwise, you should admit that you
>>> don't have any first hand evidence that this statement was ever made.
>> So far, we only get your _opinion_ that he didn't say it. That's not good
>> enough.
>
> All we have, contrariwise, is your opinion

More like a wish...


> that he did, which isn't
> good enough either.
>
> On the other hand, we have the clear fact that it would have made
> little sense for him to say it, especially since he continued to work
> on vaccines for the rest of his life.
>
> Well, we'll hope that the Sabin Institute gets back to me or Pete
> Bowditch before long.
>
> -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
> These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
> "Saddam Hussein was a bad man, connected with some incredibly dangerous
> people: Cheney, Rumsfeld, George Galloway." -- Marcus Brigstocke
From: Rudy Canoza on
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
> "Vaccine-man" <ziggittes(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:f422235a-cfa4-4b20-80d6-fc460974d5cf(a)n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> On Nov 25, 9:34 pm, "Yuri Kuchinsky" <y...(a)trends.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't have the entire text of Dr. Sabin's speech.
>> Have you ever read or heard a recording of his speech? If not, how can
>> you be certain if it was ever made or, if it was, in what context this
>> quote may have been made?
>>
>>> Nevertheless, I'm not aware of a single case when a reputable alt site
>>> posted a fake quote. Therefore, I give it a very high probability that
>>> this
>>> particular quote from Dr. Sabin is valid.
>> Can you explain under what possible circumstances that Dr. Sabin would
>> make a comment condemning vaccines, yet continue his career's work and
>> establishing a pro-vaccine organization, the Sabin Vaccine Institute?
>>
>> http://sabin.org/about/sabin_mission.html
>>
>>> How about this one from Dr Morris?
>> I'd like to resolve the one regarding Dr. Sabin first, if you don't
>> mind. No sense in distractions.
>
> There's no evidence that this quote from Sabin is incorrect.

There's no evidence that he said it, and quite a lot of
solid reason to believe he didn't. The burden of proof
is on you, and quite naturally, you're shirking it.
You look to be a life-long shirker.
From: David Wright on
In article <00922002-59e4-4f83-8d16-5c240d9933af(a)v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
<yu00ku(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>On Nov 30, 2:58 pm, Jeff <kidsdoc2...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
>> > "Vaccine-man" <ziggit...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >news:53321117-4f36-4eac-b278-b3c360c9d96c(a)g30g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> >> On Nov 27, 2:11 pm, "Yuri Kuchinsky" <y...(a)trends.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >>> There's no evidence that this quote from Sabin is incorrect. I'm sorry it
>> >>> doesn't fit into your world view, but it's not my fault...
>>
>> >>> Yuri.
>> >> There is plenty of evidence that he didn't say it
>>
>> > Where is the evidence that he didn't say it?
>>
>> How do you prove a negative?
>>
>> Do you think that on his dying day, he wrote out everything he didn't say?
>>
>> You made a claim that he said something. Please provide real evidence
>> that he did, not the laughing stock web page (whale.to).
>>
>> >> (or if he did, it is
>> >> taken out of context. This is a person who *until his dying day*
>> >> promoted vaccination against vaccine-preventable diseases. How could
>> >> he have possible made the comment you have asserted?
>>
>> >> Once again, can you provide the full text of this supposed
>> >> presentation that Dr. Sabin gave? Otherwise, you should admit that you
>> >> don't have any first hand evidence that this statement was ever made.
>>
>> > So far, we only get your _opinion_ that he didn't say it. That's not good
>> > enough.
>>
>> It is inconsistent with the rest of the work he did. And you have
>> offered no verifiable evidence that he said it.
>>
>> Jeff
>
>This game is really getting old...
>
>This Sabin quote was first used on Usenet on Feb 7 1998 by Natural
>Mom.

Whoopee. So that means it's real? Nope.

>David Wright reply on Oct 18 1999
>"*Where and when* did he say this? I would be he either said no such
>thing, or he's being quoted out of context."
>
>Also, "Jeff" said something similar about 9 years ago.
>
>The same cast of characters, the same lame excuses...

The same lack of information from the anti-vaxers.

>Why don't you just close your eyes and ears and keep saying, "He
>didn't say it, he didn't say it, he didn't say it, he didn't say
>it..."

And you're just like all the other anti-vaxers, doing the ol'
cut-and-paste from each other's web sites. That's not evidence of
anything aside from your ability to use a mouse.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"Saddam Hussein was a bad man, connected with some incredibly dangerous
people: Cheney, Rumsfeld, George Galloway." -- Marcus Brigstocke