From: Jan Drew on

"Mark Probert" <markprobert(a)lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:Gz0ag.18$RM1.7(a)fe12.lga...
> Jan Drew wrote:
>> "Mark Probert" <markprobert(a)lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
>> news:RCH9g.14$Lz2.13(a)fe10.lga...
>>> Max C. wrote:
>>>> Mark Probert wrote:
>>>>> You should spend some time figuring out what you are doing wrong to
>>>>> cause repeated injury. I do a lot of lifting of my son to and from his
>>>>> wheelchair and, so far, have not had a significant problem. I learned
>>>>> how to lift a very time ago, and I think that is what does it. I plan
>>>>> every lift.
>>>> Oh, I know what I did wrong the first 2 times. I lifted without
>>>> thinking it through first.
>>> Exactly my point. Visualizing lifting from the point where you place
>>> your feet to begin to the end point can prevent most lifting injuries.
>>>
>>> The 1st time was when I was a teen working
>>>> at Wal-Mart. I lifted a case of Chlorox and twisted my upper body as I
>>>> lifted.
>>> Lifting has got to be separate from any other activity. The stress on
>>> the paraspinals must be as even as possible.
>>>
>>>> It had to be, without a doubt, the worst pain of my life. I
>>>> lived with that pain for over 2 years before I finally went to my first
>>>> chiropractic visit. They fixed in less than 2 months what I had lived
>>>> with for over 2 years.
>>> You were lucky not to have direct impingement on the nerve roots. Two
>>> years of wear causes long term residual problems.
>>>
>>> The second time was years later building a
>>>> house. Same stupid thing, though. I lifted something heavy and
>>>> twisted. Down I went.
>>>>
>>>> The last 2 times it has happened (one just a couple of months ago) have
>>>> no explanation. I just wake up in severe pain. Nothing out of the
>>>> oridinary the day before.
>>> You may have had several small problems which accumulated over a period
>>> of time until one incident triggered it. Remember that it is the
>>> imbalance of the stress on the paraspinals which causes the most
>>> problems. After several back injuries you become more susceptible to
>>> injury.
>>>
>>> I'm starting to suspect my bed. It *is*
>>>> rather soft.
>>> Soft beds do not help. Are you doing back exercises? I do them three
>>> times a week, without fail. My son uses his dumbbells for his upper body
>>> while I do my low back. Family plan.
>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like you got a doc that's trying to build a client base
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> enough clients.
>>>>> On occasion one of my insurance company clients questions the
>>>>> frequency
>>>>> of treatment a chiropractor is providing. We have set up a
>>>>> surveillance
>>>>> camera outside of the chiropractors office and do a patient count. One
>>>>> fellow was treating 30 patients an hour. He does not do workers
>>>>> compensation any longer. Without that, a chiropractor in NY is out of
>>>>> business.
>>>> 30 an hour!?!? Just one doctor in the office? Yeah, there's something
>>>> wrong there.
>>> There have been a few.
>>
>> I greatly doubt that! That's another famous Exaggeration from the posts
>> of Mark Probert!
>
> Is this in the spirit of live and let live? Surely not.

lol. In the spirit of live and let live..one can now not doubt Mark
Proberet's Exaggeration
of his posts.


> How many chiropractors are within 15 miles of your home? According to
> YahooLocal:

Irrelevant.
>
> Local Results Results 1 - 10 out of 743 total results for chiropractor in
> Merrick, NY 11566
>
>
> Now, according to YahooLocal:
>
> Local Results Results 1 - 10 out of 28 total results for chiropractor in
> BlXXXXXXX, IN
>
>> Been to several chiropractor's offices... never anything near 30 an
>> hour.. in fact... any good
>> chiropractor never schedules over four in any hour.
>> more than 4 an hour.
>
> EXACTLY! My chiro sees 4-5 an hour, depending on how many new patients are
> seen.
>
> You said "good chiropractor" and that is not what I am talking about. I am
> talking about "crooked chiropractor".

Even a *crocked chiropractor* does NOT see a patient even 2 minutes!!!

Just admit you EXAGGERATED...Mark!
>
>> However, the vast majority of chiros are honest
>>> and sincere with there business practices.
>>>
>>> The worst case was an orthopedic surgeon. I did an undercover visit with
>>> a false claim. There was nothing wrong with my back (MRI negative,
>>> EMG/NCV negative, etc. the week before) and he diagnosed a back problem
>>> without any significant lost of motion, etc. and recommended 3X a week
>>> PT in his PT center. Just my complaints of low back and radicular pain,
>>> which were intentionally, non-anatomical.
>>>
>>> Prosecuted, convicted and license pulled.
>
> Hmmm...Jan, no comment?

See above, Mark!

I have reason not to believe a word you write!
>
>
>


From: Mark Probert on
Jan Drew wrote:
> "Mark Probert" <markprobert(a)lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
> news:Gz0ag.18$RM1.7(a)fe12.lga...
>> Jan Drew wrote:
>>> "Mark Probert" <markprobert(a)lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
>>> news:RCH9g.14$Lz2.13(a)fe10.lga...
>>>> Max C. wrote:
>>>>> Mark Probert wrote:
>>>>>> You should spend some time figuring out what you are doing wrong to
>>>>>> cause repeated injury. I do a lot of lifting of my son to and from his
>>>>>> wheelchair and, so far, have not had a significant problem. I learned
>>>>>> how to lift a very time ago, and I think that is what does it. I plan
>>>>>> every lift.
>>>>> Oh, I know what I did wrong the first 2 times. I lifted without
>>>>> thinking it through first.
>>>> Exactly my point. Visualizing lifting from the point where you place
>>>> your feet to begin to the end point can prevent most lifting injuries.
>>>>
>>>> The 1st time was when I was a teen working
>>>>> at Wal-Mart. I lifted a case of Chlorox and twisted my upper body as I
>>>>> lifted.
>>>> Lifting has got to be separate from any other activity. The stress on
>>>> the paraspinals must be as even as possible.
>>>>
>>>>> It had to be, without a doubt, the worst pain of my life. I
>>>>> lived with that pain for over 2 years before I finally went to my first
>>>>> chiropractic visit. They fixed in less than 2 months what I had lived
>>>>> with for over 2 years.
>>>> You were lucky not to have direct impingement on the nerve roots. Two
>>>> years of wear causes long term residual problems.
>>>>
>>>> The second time was years later building a
>>>>> house. Same stupid thing, though. I lifted something heavy and
>>>>> twisted. Down I went.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last 2 times it has happened (one just a couple of months ago) have
>>>>> no explanation. I just wake up in severe pain. Nothing out of the
>>>>> oridinary the day before.
>>>> You may have had several small problems which accumulated over a period
>>>> of time until one incident triggered it. Remember that it is the
>>>> imbalance of the stress on the paraspinals which causes the most
>>>> problems. After several back injuries you become more susceptible to
>>>> injury.
>>>>
>>>> I'm starting to suspect my bed. It *is*
>>>>> rather soft.
>>>> Soft beds do not help. Are you doing back exercises? I do them three
>>>> times a week, without fail. My son uses his dumbbells for his upper body
>>>> while I do my low back. Family plan.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Sounds like you got a doc that's trying to build a client base
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> enough clients.
>>>>>> On occasion one of my insurance company clients questions the
>>>>>> frequency
>>>>>> of treatment a chiropractor is providing. We have set up a
>>>>>> surveillance
>>>>>> camera outside of the chiropractors office and do a patient count. One
>>>>>> fellow was treating 30 patients an hour. He does not do workers
>>>>>> compensation any longer. Without that, a chiropractor in NY is out of
>>>>>> business.
>>>>> 30 an hour!?!? Just one doctor in the office? Yeah, there's something
>>>>> wrong there.
>>>> There have been a few.
>>> I greatly doubt that! That's another famous Exaggeration from the posts
>>> of Mark Probert!
>> Is this in the spirit of live and let live? Surely not.
>
> lol. In the spirit of live and let live..one can now not doubt Mark
> Proberet's Exaggeration
> of his posts.

Jan, I am shocked. You are not following live and let live.

>> How many chiropractors are within 15 miles of your home? According to
>> YahooLocal:
>
> Irrelevant.

No, quite relevant, as the larger the population, the more likely that
the rare crooked one will show up.

>> Local Results Results 1 - 10 out of 743 total results for chiropractor in
>> Merrick, NY 11566
>>
>>
>> Now, according to YahooLocal:
>>
>> Local Results Results 1 - 10 out of 28 total results for chiropractor in
>> BlXXXXXXX, IN
>>
>>> Been to several chiropractor's offices... never anything near 30 an
>>> hour.. in fact... any good
>>> chiropractor never schedules over four in any hour.
>>> more than 4 an hour.
>> EXACTLY! My chiro sees 4-5 an hour, depending on how many new patients are
>> seen.
>>
>> You said "good chiropractor" and that is not what I am talking about. I am
>> talking about "crooked chiropractor".
>
> Even a *crocked chiropractor* does NOT see a patient even 2 minutes!!!

Of course they do. The patient goes into the office, signs in, says
hello, the doctor says bend over, and bingo...an office visit is charged.

> Just admit you EXAGGERATED...Mark!

That would be a lie, and I do not lie.

>>> However, the vast majority of chiros are honest
>>>> and sincere with there business practices.
>>>>
>>>> The worst case was an orthopedic surgeon. I did an undercover visit with
>>>> a false claim. There was nothing wrong with my back (MRI negative,
>>>> EMG/NCV negative, etc. the week before) and he diagnosed a back problem
>>>> without any significant lost of motion, etc. and recommended 3X a week
>>>> PT in his PT center. Just my complaints of low back and radicular pain,
>>>> which were intentionally, non-anatomical.
>>>>
>>>> Prosecuted, convicted and license pulled.
>> Hmmm...Jan, no comment?
>
> See above, Mark!
>
> I have reason not to believe a word you write!

Sadly, you are still having the comprehension and reality disassociation
problems.

>>
>>
>
>
From: The Boom King on

"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname(a)ratbags.com> wrote in message
news:7cuf629e10ttjs0k19p50a7m4msc3rb3go(a)4ax.com...

>>> The Boom King <Boom!@spamsux.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>possibly developed by a medical professional who couldn't even define
>>>>the word
>>>>subluxation
>>>
>>>
>>> Please define the word "subluxation".
>>
>>
>>Rather than parrot the words of some great doctor that came before me,
>>let me give you this link, if you're really interested. If you just
>>want to test me, I can put it in my own words (and actually have if you
>>read my post carefully).

> >>http://www.chiro.org/LINKS/FULL/VERTEBRAL_SUBLUXATION_1.html


>
> Please do.

I wonder why you would be more interested in my personal definition than
such a well-crafted and thorough explanation of the origin and use of the
term in the above link I recommended. Perhaps you've targeted chiropractic
as something fradulent and me as someone you can expose. I'm already quite
aware of the amount of time I'll be wasting posting real answers the 2
requests, but in the interest of making sure someone else isn't misled by
your errant assertions below, I'll go ahead and do it.

A subluxation (or I prefer the term Vertebral Subluxation Complex - VSC) is
a clinical entity that is described by the loss of normal functional or
structural relationship between 2 adjacent vertebrae. This loss of
relationship takes the form of decreased motion for that particular segment
and results in altered neurological function at that level. The degree of
neurological involvement is variable and the source of most of the
controversy on this subject. However, the reduced joint motion is the
component that is addressed by a chiropractic adjustment.



>> > Please tell us how to reliably detect such a thing.

Chiropractors take years of practice to learn to do this well, and have
developed many techniques. When a subluxation occurs, it causes or is
related to a number of signs detectable by static palpation, such as edema,
myospasm and tenderness. These are generally local phenomena that are
surprisingly consistent from patient to patient. Once one acheives a high
enough level of tactile discrimination, many characteristics of the
subluxation can be determined rather quickly by just feeling it. The motion
of the segment can then be analyzed through motion palpation which is also a
specific and finely developed skill that can reveal much to a trained
practioner. Long-term subluxations result in joint degeneration that can be
detected on x-rays as well as a video fluoroscope that can clearly
demonstrate altered joint mechanics. Altered local neurology can result in
comparable fluxuations in sympathetic innervation to the skin that results
in temperature variations that can be measured by several types of devices
that I've seen as well as a thermograph. Again, a practitioner proficient
with these system can gather much information from slight variation in skin
temperature. Some practioners incorporate Kinesiology, Reflexology, and
TCM principles to develop more information about the location and influence
of the subluxation. There are more chiropractic techniques than I can name,
and most have developed unique procedures that have contributed to our
ability to detect and correct a subluxation. This has just been a sample of
some commonly acknowledged signs observed over a hundred years of clinical
practice.


> The words "disease" and "subluxation" are incommensurable. They are in
> different knowledge domains. A better substitution would be "sign" or
> "symptom".
>
> I ask a chiropractor: "Please tell us how to reliably detect a
> subluxation".
>
> I ask a doctor: "Please tell us how to reliably detect a fever".


WOW. Where to start with this nonsense? Well, first off - I wasn't really
trying to compare the two words as such, but illustrating it would be just
as complicated for me to give a full answer.
And second off - you're wrong. The words "disease" and "subluxation" are
quite comparable, in fact "disease" is probably the best choice for an
analogy here. They are both clinical entities that can be detected by signs
and symptoms. A DC has a protocol for treatment in the presence of a
subluxation and none when there is not, just as an MD does with disease. DC
treats subluxation, MD treats disease. Clearly comparable. And third off,
you guessed it, you're wrong again. A "sign" is an objective, observable
indication measurable by the examiner and apparent in the absence of verbal
info from the patient. A "symptom" is the subjective experience of the
patient in regards to the entity and is communicated to the examiner.
Neither is comparable to a subluxation, which as an entity on its own, and
exhibits both signs and symptoms that are used to diagnose it. Just like a
disease. BTW, what knowledge domain do you inhabit?


> Unless you want us to believe that the subluxation is all of the
> problem, not either a cause or an effect.
>
>> Do you really want a comparable
>>answer or are you trying to imply it can't be done. The purpose of 4
>>years of chiropractic college is to learn to do just this. If you
>>really want a description of the methodology, OK, but after finding a
>>link to Barrett on your web site, I doubt you're really interested in an
>>honest discussion.
>
> Ah, the old "you know Barrett so I won't talk to you" form of
> argument. I have links to chiropractors and Curezone as well.

The guy is a crackpot who is much more interested in smearing chiropractic,
among other things, than he is with an honest discussion of the issues.
He's been discredited repeatedly and I don't find his methods or information
useful. He's like Rush Limbaugh - just entertainment, no substance.


--
Boom!


From: Hyderman DC on

The Boom King <Boom!@boom.boom> wrote in message
news:kh7ag.49005$MM6.27368(a)bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname(a)ratbags.com> wrote in message
> news:7cuf629e10ttjs0k19p50a7m4msc3rb3go(a)4ax.com...
>
> >>> The Boom King <Boom!@spamsux.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>possibly developed by a medical professional who couldn't even define
> >>>>the word
> >>>>subluxation
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Please define the word "subluxation".
> >>
> >>
> >>Rather than parrot the words of some great doctor that came before me,
> >>let me give you this link, if you're really interested. If you just
> >>want to test me, I can put it in my own words (and actually have if you
> >>read my post carefully).
>
> > >>http://www.chiro.org/LINKS/FULL/VERTEBRAL_SUBLUXATION_1.html
>
>
> >
> > Please do.
>
> I wonder why you would be more interested in my personal definition than
> such a well-crafted and thorough explanation of the origin and use of the
> term in the above link I recommended. Perhaps you've targeted
chiropractic
> as something fradulent and me as someone you can expose. I'm already
quite
> aware of the amount of time I'll be wasting posting real answers the 2
> requests, but in the interest of making sure someone else isn't misled by
> your errant assertions below, I'll go ahead and do it.
>
> A subluxation (or I prefer the term Vertebral Subluxation Complex - VSC)
is
> a clinical entity that is described by the loss of normal functional or
> structural relationship between 2 adjacent vertebrae. This loss of
> relationship takes the form of decreased motion for that particular
segment
> and results in altered neurological function at that level. The degree of
> neurological involvement is variable and the source of most of the
> controversy on this subject. However, the reduced joint motion is the
> component that is addressed by a chiropractic adjustment.
>
>
>
> >> > Please tell us how to reliably detect such a thing.
>
> Chiropractors take years of practice to learn to do this well, and have
> developed many techniques. When a subluxation occurs, it causes or is
> related to a number of signs detectable by static palpation, such as
edema,
> myospasm and tenderness. These are generally local phenomena that are
> surprisingly consistent from patient to patient. Once one acheives a high
> enough level of tactile discrimination, many characteristics of the
> subluxation can be determined rather quickly by just feeling it. The
motion
> of the segment can then be analyzed through motion palpation which is also
a
> specific and finely developed skill that can reveal much to a trained
> practioner. Long-term subluxations result in joint degeneration that can
be
> detected on x-rays as well as a video fluoroscope that can clearly
> demonstrate altered joint mechanics. Altered local neurology can result
in
> comparable fluxuations in sympathetic innervation to the skin that results
> in temperature variations that can be measured by several types of devices
> that I've seen as well as a thermograph. Again, a practitioner proficient
> with these system can gather much information from slight variation in
skin
> temperature. Some practioners incorporate Kinesiology, Reflexology, and
> TCM principles to develop more information about the location and
influence
> of the subluxation. There are more chiropractic techniques than I can
name,
> and most have developed unique procedures that have contributed to our
> ability to detect and correct a subluxation. This has just been a sample
of
> some commonly acknowledged signs observed over a hundred years of clinical
> practice.

Well described. I don't fully understand why a lot of folks have a problem
grasping this. To a chiropractor, it's all too obvious, and after 26 years
of practice, I have seen the results time over and again. My patients are
exceptionally loyal and I don't do anything apart from what I am trained to
do.

Some folks have a tough time with things they don't have an opportunity to
see. I remember in my fourth grade geography class the teacher asked us how
far the human eye could see on a clear day. Well most of the answers ranged
from "a mile or two, maybe five". That's because they were all fourth
graders relating to a reference point in their own reality. Hmmm, how far
can I see when I walk to school? Hmmm, I can see the top of the church from
my house and that's at least two miles.
My answer was I could see anywhere from 50-100 miles on a clear day.My
classmates howled in jesting laughter, mocking my seemingly totally
outrageous claim.I explained. my dad was a private pilot and we used to go
up flying near Oshawa Ontario and you could easily see the skyscrapers in
Buffalo about 50 miles away.
The teacher then pointed out that we can easily see the sun on a clear day,
and it happens to be 93 million miles away.

Most folks of average intelligence (but no one would ever suggest *they*
were merely average) cannot comprehend a whole bunch until they get immersed
in it themselves, just like I did.





> > The words "disease" and "subluxation" are incommensurable. They are in
> > different knowledge domains. A better substitution would be "sign" or
> > "symptom".
> >
> > I ask a chiropractor: "Please tell us how to reliably detect a
> > subluxation".
> >
> > I ask a doctor: "Please tell us how to reliably detect a fever".
>
>
> WOW. Where to start with this nonsense? Well, first off - I wasn't
really
> trying to compare the two words as such, but illustrating it would be just
> as complicated for me to give a full answer.
> And second off - you're wrong. The words "disease" and "subluxation" are
> quite comparable, in fact "disease" is probably the best choice for an
> analogy here. They are both clinical entities that can be detected by
signs
> and symptoms. A DC has a protocol for treatment in the presence of a
> subluxation and none when there is not, just as an MD does with disease.
DC
> treats subluxation, MD treats disease. Clearly comparable. And third
off,
> you guessed it, you're wrong again. A "sign" is an objective, observable
> indication measurable by the examiner and apparent in the absence of
verbal
> info from the patient. A "symptom" is the subjective experience of the
> patient in regards to the entity and is communicated to the examiner.
> Neither is comparable to a subluxation, which as an entity on its own, and
> exhibits both signs and symptoms that are used to diagnose it. Just like
a
> disease. BTW, what knowledge domain do you inhabit?
>
>
> > Unless you want us to believe that the subluxation is all of the
> > problem, not either a cause or an effect.
> >
> >> Do you really want a comparable
> >>answer or are you trying to imply it can't be done. The purpose of 4
> >>years of chiropractic college is to learn to do just this. If you
> >>really want a description of the methodology, OK, but after finding a
> >>link to Barrett on your web site, I doubt you're really interested in an
> >>honest discussion.
> >
> > Ah, the old "you know Barrett so I won't talk to you" form of
> > argument. I have links to chiropractors and Curezone as well.
>
> The guy is a crackpot who is much more interested in smearing
chiropractic,
> among other things, than he is with an honest discussion of the issues.
> He's been discredited repeatedly and I don't find his methods or
information
> useful. He's like Rush Limbaugh - just entertainment, no substance.
>
>
> --
> Boom!
>
>


From: The Boom King on
Mark Thorson wrote:

> Peter Bowditch wrote:
>
>>Ah, the old "you know Barrett so I won't talk to you" form of
>>argument. I have links to chiropractors and Curezone as well.
>
>
> That doesn't matter. He's looking for a reason
> to invalidate everything you say and wiggle out
> of responding to direct, logical questions.

See posted response... um, responding.

> One may as well ask the magician what's that
> lump up his sleeve.

Yes, quite right. Good analogy. To someone who doesn't know what
they're talking about and is ignorant of the anatomy and physiology,
chiropractic looks like magic. But, if you ask the magician to show you
how its done and explain it, you're usually surprised at how simple and
logical it is. I have occasionally heard the word "miracle" come out
of my patients mouths and been quick to assure them that their own body
is doing the real work, not me.


--
Boom...