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From: tbolcar19 on 28 Jan 2008 11:18
Hi again,
Thank you all, but especially Josh's mom. My first knee jerk response is too
not to call her or help her because I"m just so mad that she is doing this
to my brother. I know that she cuts him deep with her remarks and from what
his girlfriend said to me, he is mad at his daughter also, but he would
never show this; I know my brother, he is as gentle as a lamb. I have never
seen him really angry at anyone.
What helped me most was the part about being patient and loving to her even
when she is ugly, and the whole last paragraph about how to handle when she
(and she just did this) has her husband call him and insist that he not
bring his girlfriend to any family functions. I cried when my brother had to
attend the last family wedding alone, he was so very sad. I have 7 (6
living) brothers and sisters, 18 nieces and nephews and 3 great nephews (one
just born 2 days ago). We are in a phase with my family where there are alot
of weddings and babies being born. It is a joyous time for my family; and to
have my brother be sad now, makes me cry for him. I was even thinking about
"boycotting" the next wedding if he was not "allowed" to bring his
girlfriend; but I will not do that. Thanks so much!!!!!!!!!! I can'
t tell you how helpful this was.
gratefully,
chris

"Lynn - Josh's Mom" <lynn.zarda(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5284e217-1450-4a95-9b3b-df12aa0aab18(a)l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 27, 2:44 pm, "tbolcar19" <tbolca...(a)comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hi ,
>> I'm new here and have a question.
>> My 58yr.old brother lost his lovely wife 2and 1/2 yrs. ago. (cancer) Soon
>> after, his minister at his church introduced him to a widow of about that
>> long also.
>> They began taking walks together and since then, they are almost always
>> together. Dave told me as soon as his wife died, that the lonliness was
>> excruciating. This woman is so good for him and they recently expressed
>> their love for each other. ( I am the only one that knows that).
>> He began bringing her to some family functions, and everyone loved her
>> also,
>> except for my brothers 28yr.old daughter and her grandmother.
>> He initially told his daughter that they were just friends, which was
>> true
>> in the beginning.
>> Dave kept his "friend" low key up till this point. When his daughter
>> found
>> out that he was bringing her to another family function, she exploded on
>> him...calling him a bad father and a bad grandfather to her 2 little
>> sons.
>> She cursed at him. She said "I don't ever want her car to be in front of
>> the
>> house again". She said don't come to my house either...it's either her or
>> me. And alot of other wounding, cutting remarks.
>> She had told me that it is tradional in her Italian family to not see
>> anyone
>> after a spouds dies because it is "dishonoring" the deceased. (way before
>> this incident, casually)
>> So, you can see the problem. My brother is soft spoken and his daughter
>> is
>> not at all.
>> Dave's girlfriend called me, that is how I know what happened. We have
>> become good friends. I also love my niece and frequently baby sit and
>> help
>> however I can.
>> Any comments would be appreciated. I haven't done anything but pray that
>> his
>> daughter doesn't pull them apart.
>> thanks,
>> chris
>
> Chris:
> Personally the daughter is still probably grieving her Mothers death,
> two years isn't that long ago. I think that your brother should talk
> to his daughter about this. No one can tell another how to grieve or
> for how long to grieve. Grieving is truly a very personal thing. I
> would hope that all involved will be gentle with her no matter how
> rude she becomes.
>
> At the same time, kids, no matter how old they are also need to know
> that each one of us, have our very own lives to live.
> From personal experience not from the death of a spouse but from a
> divorce of a spouse, have first hand knowledge of how adult children
> think they can have a decision in who and when their parent dates.
> When the lines are drawn in the sand by adult children and things are
> said as to choosing between them as our children and who ever it is we
> want to be around. It is so important to be patient with them and even
> when they are being ugly to be sure they know how loved they are by us
> unconditionally. You know the saying pick your battles? It does no
> good to win a battle only to lose the war with your kids. Bad things
> in your relationship with them can last a lifetime.
>
> With that said - You the parent should not ever decide such a
> question. With out fighting and being loving when addressed by your
> children to choose - simply hug them - tell them you will always be
> there for them and continue to love them but that YOU ARE the PARENT
> and this is what you will be doing right now in your life. If they go
> further with not seeing you and giving you orders as to who you can
> bring around them. Respect there feelings up to a point. Don't bring
> this person to there home but keep inviting your child to your home
> and life and remember you are an adult and have that person beside you
> when you see them. If it is something like Christmas gathering of all
> your family - and they say you can't come because you are with her. Go
> anyway. Don't sweat the small stuff. Trust me when I say life will
> always throw us the really big stuff to deal with and petty fighting
> with your kids isn't worth it. Sorry so lengthy, but I am very
> opinionated on this subject.
>
> Lynn - Josh's Mom


From: john.orthwein on 28 Jan 2008 17:35
You know, I have a different take on this issue. Chris, you can
easily go on with your life after the loss of your sister-in-law. You
are evidently very close with your family -- your brothers. You want,
and this is natural, the people you love to be happy. You may have
gotten along very well with your sister-in-law, she may have been your
friend, but still, your life goes on as it always had been. You have
not had your heart torn out, you have not woken up each day wondering
how you will make it- and perhaps not wanting to make it - through the
day. For your neice, perhaps her life has completely turned around.
This was her mother! I truely believe that a love between a parant and
child is much more complex than love between spouses. We see posts
here from children who desperately grieve their mothers. Yes, of
course spouses share a deep love and devotion, however with the
divorce rate at 50%, one has to realize that two adults in a spousal
relationship can find it in themselves to get beyond the realtionship
and move on to new and possibly better things. Love between a parant
and child is different. It is a bond that occurs at birth, never to
break. Your neice probably sees her father's new love interest as a
sign that he has forgotten, or gotten over the death of her mother. As
many of us here know, the thought that others can forget or get over
the death of our parents or children is excruciating. She may not be
able to accept the fact that her father is not devestated as she is,
and this makes her very angry and hurt. I am not saying that your
brother is wrong for finding someone else, or that your neice is
exhibiting rational behavior, I am just trying to put this in her
perspective.



On Jan 28, 11:18 am, "tbolcar19" <tbolca...(a)comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi again,
> Thank you all, but especially Josh's mom. My first knee jerk response is too
> not to call her or help her because I"m just so mad that she is doing this
> to my brother. I know that she cuts him deep with her remarks and from what
> his girlfriend said to me, he is mad at his daughter also, but he would
> never show this; I know my brother, he is as gentle as a lamb. I have never
> seen him really angry at anyone.
> What helped me most was the part about being patient and loving to her even
> when she is ugly, and the whole last paragraph about how to handle when she
> (and she just did this) has her husband call him and insist that he not
> bring his girlfriend to any family functions. I cried when my brother had to
> attend the last family wedding alone, he was so very sad. I have 7 (6
> living) brothers and sisters, 18 nieces and nephews and 3 great nephews (one
> just born 2 days ago). We are in a phase with my family where there are alot
> of weddings and babies being born. It is a joyous time for my family; and to
> have my brother be sad now, makes me cry for him. I was even thinking about
> "boycotting" the next wedding if he was not "allowed" to bring his
> girlfriend; but I will not do that. Thanks so much!!!!!!!!!!  I can'
> t tell you how helpful this was.
> gratefully,
> chris
>
> "Lynn - Josh's Mom" <lynn.za...(a)gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:5284e217-1450-4a95-9b3b-df12aa0aab18(a)l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jan 27, 2:44 pm, "tbolcar19" <tbolca...(a)comcast.net> wrote:
> >> Hi ,
> >> I'm new here and have a question.
> >> My 58yr.old brother lost his lovely wife 2and 1/2 yrs. ago. (cancer) Soon
> >> after, his minister at his church introduced him to a widow of about that
> >> long also.
> >> They began taking walks together and since then, they are almost always
> >> together. Dave told me as soon as his wife died, that the lonliness was
> >> excruciating.  This woman is so good for him and they recently expressed
> >> their love for each other. ( I am the only one that knows that).
> >> He began bringing her to some family functions, and everyone loved her
> >> also,
> >> except for my brothers 28yr.old daughter and her grandmother.
> >> He initially told his daughter that they were just friends, which was
> >> true
> >> in the beginning.
> >> Dave kept his "friend" low key up till this point. When his daughter
> >> found
> >> out that he was bringing her to another family function, she exploded on
> >> him...calling him a bad father and a bad grandfather to her 2 little
> >> sons.
> >> She cursed at him. She said "I don't ever want her car to be in front of
> >> the
> >> house again". She said don't come to my house either...it's either her or
> >> me. And alot of other wounding, cutting remarks.
> >> She had told me that it is tradional in her Italian family to not see
> >> anyone
> >> after a spouds dies because it is "dishonoring" the deceased. (way before
> >> this incident, casually)
> >> So, you can see the problem. My brother is soft spoken and his daughter
> >> is
> >> not at all.
> >> Dave's girlfriend called me, that is how I know what happened. We have
> >>  become good friends. I also love my niece and frequently baby sit and
> >> help
> >> however I can.
> >> Any comments would be appreciated. I haven't done anything but pray that
> >> his
> >> daughter doesn't pull them apart.
> >> thanks,
> >> chris
>
> > Chris:
> > Personally the daughter is still probably grieving her Mothers death,
> > two years isn't that long ago. I think that your brother should talk
> > to his daughter about this. No one can tell another how to grieve or
> > for how long to grieve. Grieving is truly a very personal thing. I
> > would hope that all involved will be gentle with her no matter how
> > rude she becomes.
>
> > At the same time, kids, no matter how old they are also need to know
> > that each one of us, have our very own lives to live.
> > From personal experience not from the death of a spouse but from a
> > divorce of a spouse, have first hand knowledge of how adult children
> > think they can have a decision in who and when their parent dates.
> > When the lines are drawn in the sand by adult children and things are
> > said as to choosing between them as our children and who ever it is we
> > want to be around. It is so important to be patient with them and even
> > when they are being ugly to be sure they know how loved they are by us
> > unconditionally. You know the saying pick your battles? It does no
> > good to win a battle only to lose the war with your kids. Bad things
> > in your relationship with them can last a lifetime.
>
> > With that said - You the parent should not ever decide such a
> > question. With out fighting and being loving when addressed by your
> > children to choose - simply hug them - tell them you will always be
> > there for them and continue to love them but that YOU ARE the PARENT
> > and this is what you will be doing right now in your life. If they go
> > further with not seeing you and giving you orders as to who you can
> > bring around them. Respect there feelings up to a point. Don't bring
> > this person to there home but keep inviting your child to your home
> > and life and remember you are an adult and have that person beside you
> > when you see them. If it is something like Christmas gathering of all
> > your family - and they say you can't come because you are with her. Go
> > anyway. Don't sweat the small stuff. Trust me when I say life will
> > always throw us the really big stuff to deal with and petty fighting
> > with your kids isn't worth it. Sorry so lengthy, but I am very
> > opinionated on this subject.
>
> > Lynn - Josh's Mom

From: Jo in Ok on 28 Jan 2008 18:55
On Jan 27, 12:44 pm, "tbolcar19" <tbolca...(a)comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi ,
> I'm new here and have a question.
> My 58yr.old brother lost his lovely wife 2and 1/2 yrs. ago. (cancer) Soon
> after, his minister at his church introduced him to a widow of about that
> long also.
> They began taking walks together and since then, they are almost always
> together. Dave told me as soon as his wife died, that the lonliness was
> excruciating.  This woman is so good for him and they recently expressed
> their love for each other. ( I am the only one that knows that).
> He began bringing her to some family functions, and everyone loved her also,
> except for my brothers 28yr.old daughter and her grandmother.
> He initially told his daughter that they were just friends, which was true
> in the beginning.
> Dave kept his "friend" low key up till this point. When his daughter found
> out that he was bringing her to another family function, she exploded on
> him...calling him a bad father and a bad grandfather to her 2 little sons.
> She cursed at him. She said "I don't ever want her car to be in front of the
> house again". She said don't come to my house either...it's either her or
> me. And alot of other wounding, cutting remarks.
> She had told me that it is tradional in her Italian family to not see anyone
> after a spouds dies because it is "dishonoring" the deceased. (way before
> this incident, casually)
> So, you can see the problem. My brother is soft spoken and his daughter is
> not at all.
> Dave's girlfriend called me, that is how I know what happened. We have
> become good friends. I also love my niece and frequently baby sit and help
> however I can.
> Any comments would be appreciated. I haven't done anything but pray that his
> daughter doesn't pull them apart.
> thanks,
> chris

I don't expect my dh to even last a year without getting
remarried...he is not lonely but needs
his sex! lol! and being a Christian, he will want to make it right so
he would have to get married.
I am being honest here even if it sounds bad....I don't plan to EVER
get remarried-married
2 jerks-that's way enough for me...and no, I don't hate my dh and
don't believe in divorce-
had to divorce first jerk as he ran around on me and was never home-
not a good husband to help
raise 2 small boys with...second and current one had a bad anger
problem and yeah-he ran around
on me too but after he found the Lord, he settled down some...still
has his "moments" oh well...;(
Maybe this daughter is afraid of losing any money or ect, she might
get in a will? Alot of orginal
families lose out-the current family gets all the dough,ect....
Anyway, hope it all works out for everyone! (((hugs)))
From: tbolcar19 on 29 Jan 2008 16:55
HI,
It's me again. I just spoke with my niece and John had it right on the
money. She is 28yr's old and she goes to a "mothers without mothers" group
which has been very helpful to her. She told my that not one of the girls in
this group has a good relationship with their fathers once they dated or
re-married. NOT ONE. She said that if he continues with the relationship
with this woman, then she doesn't want anything to do with him.
Apparently, it doesn't matter how much time has passed either. Even after 8
or more yrs. the daughters have only a distant rel. with their father. She
sees it as extremely disrespectful of the memory of her mother. She said
that she can't go out and find a new mother. I never saw it like that. And
she could never be a part of his life if had another woman in his life.
I see this from my brothers' standpoint. I cant imagine what it must have
been to lose your mom at 26yr.old and just got married and just hurried to
have a baby, so that her mom could see the baby before she died. I can't put
myself there.
Plus, she is most angry that he and this woman are dating. He told her that
they were just friends the whole time. I'm sure he know how she might react.
Any comments are appreciated.
chris
<john.orthwein(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dd0b7462-c259-418d-8211-eb7d4a46b0c7(a)q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
You know, I have a different take on this issue. Chris, you can
easily go on with your life after the loss of your sister-in-law. You
are evidently very close with your family -- your brothers. You want,
and this is natural, the people you love to be happy. You may have
gotten along very well with your sister-in-law, she may have been your
friend, but still, your life goes on as it always had been. You have
not had your heart torn out, you have not woken up each day wondering
how you will make it- and perhaps not wanting to make it - through the
day. For your neice, perhaps her life has completely turned around.
This was her mother! I truely believe that a love between a parant and
child is much more complex than love between spouses. We see posts
here from children who desperately grieve their mothers. Yes, of
course spouses share a deep love and devotion, however with the
divorce rate at 50%, one has to realize that two adults in a spousal
relationship can find it in themselves to get beyond the realtionship
and move on to new and possibly better things. Love between a parant
and child is different. It is a bond that occurs at birth, never to
break. Your neice probably sees her father's new love interest as a
sign that he has forgotten, or gotten over the death of her mother. As
many of us here know, the thought that others can forget or get over
the death of our parents or children is excruciating. She may not be
able to accept the fact that her father is not devestated as she is,
and this makes her very angry and hurt. I am not saying that your
brother is wrong for finding someone else, or that your neice is
exhibiting rational behavior, I am just trying to put this in her
perspective.



On Jan 28, 11:18 am, "tbolcar19" <tbolca...(a)comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi again,
> Thank you all, but especially Josh's mom. My first knee jerk response is
> too
> not to call her or help her because I"m just so mad that she is doing this
> to my brother. I know that she cuts him deep with her remarks and from
> what
> his girlfriend said to me, he is mad at his daughter also, but he would
> never show this; I know my brother, he is as gentle as a lamb. I have
> never
> seen him really angry at anyone.
> What helped me most was the part about being patient and loving to her
> even
> when she is ugly, and the whole last paragraph about how to handle when
> she
> (and she just did this) has her husband call him and insist that he not
> bring his girlfriend to any family functions. I cried when my brother had
> to
> attend the last family wedding alone, he was so very sad. I have 7 (6
> living) brothers and sisters, 18 nieces and nephews and 3 great nephews
> (one
> just born 2 days ago). We are in a phase with my family where there are
> alot
> of weddings and babies being born. It is a joyous time for my family; and
> to
> have my brother be sad now, makes me cry for him. I was even thinking
> about
> "boycotting" the next wedding if he was not "allowed" to bring his
> girlfriend; but I will not do that. Thanks so much!!!!!!!!!! I can'
> t tell you how helpful this was.
> gratefully,
> chris
>
> "Lynn - Josh's Mom" <lynn.za...(a)gmail.com> wrote in
> messagenews:5284e217-1450-4a95-9b3b-df12aa0aab18(a)l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jan 27, 2:44 pm, "tbolcar19" <tbolca...(a)comcast.net> wrote:
> >> Hi ,
> >> I'm new here and have a question.
> >> My 58yr.old brother lost his lovely wife 2and 1/2 yrs. ago. (cancer)
> >> Soon
> >> after, his minister at his church introduced him to a widow of about
> >> that
> >> long also.
> >> They began taking walks together and since then, they are almost always
> >> together. Dave told me as soon as his wife died, that the lonliness was
> >> excruciating. This woman is so good for him and they recently expressed
> >> their love for each other. ( I am the only one that knows that).
> >> He began bringing her to some family functions, and everyone loved her
> >> also,
> >> except for my brothers 28yr.old daughter and her grandmother.
> >> He initially told his daughter that they were just friends, which was
> >> true
> >> in the beginning.
> >> Dave kept his "friend" low key up till this point. When his daughter
> >> found
> >> out that he was bringing her to another family function, she exploded
> >> on
> >> him...calling him a bad father and a bad grandfather to her 2 little
> >> sons.
> >> She cursed at him. She said "I don't ever want her car to be in front
> >> of
> >> the
> >> house again". She said don't come to my house either...it's either her
> >> or
> >> me. And alot of other wounding, cutting remarks.
> >> She had told me that it is tradional in her Italian family to not see
> >> anyone
> >> after a spouds dies because it is "dishonoring" the deceased. (way
> >> before
> >> this incident, casually)
> >> So, you can see the problem. My brother is soft spoken and his daughter
> >> is
> >> not at all.
> >> Dave's girlfriend called me, that is how I know what happened. We have
> >> become good friends. I also love my niece and frequently baby sit and
> >> help
> >> however I can.
> >> Any comments would be appreciated. I haven't done anything but pray
> >> that
> >> his
> >> daughter doesn't pull them apart.
> >> thanks,
> >> chris
>
> > Chris:
> > Personally the daughter is still probably grieving her Mothers death,
> > two years isn't that long ago. I think that your brother should talk
> > to his daughter about this. No one can tell another how to grieve or
> > for how long to grieve. Grieving is truly a very personal thing. I
> > would hope that all involved will be gentle with her no matter how
> > rude she becomes.
>
> > At the same time, kids, no matter how old they are also need to know
> > that each one of us, have our very own lives to live.
> > From personal experience not from the death of a spouse but from a
> > divorce of a spouse, have first hand knowledge of how adult children
> > think they can have a decision in who and when their parent dates.
> > When the lines are drawn in the sand by adult children and things are
> > said as to choosing between them as our children and who ever it is we
> > want to be around. It is so important to be patient with them and even
> > when they are being ugly to be sure they know how loved they are by us
> > unconditionally. You know the saying pick your battles? It does no
> > good to win a battle only to lose the war with your kids. Bad things
> > in your relationship with them can last a lifetime.
>
> > With that said - You the parent should not ever decide such a
> > question. With out fighting and being loving when addressed by your
> > children to choose - simply hug them - tell them you will always be
> > there for them and continue to love them but that YOU ARE the PARENT
> > and this is what you will be doing right now in your life. If they go
> > further with not seeing you and giving you orders as to who you can
> > bring around them. Respect there feelings up to a point. Don't bring
> > this person to there home but keep inviting your child to your home
> > and life and remember you are an adult and have that person beside you
> > when you see them. If it is something like Christmas gathering of all
> > your family - and they say you can't come because you are with her. Go
> > anyway. Don't sweat the small stuff. Trust me when I say life will
> > always throw us the really big stuff to deal with and petty fighting
> > with your kids isn't worth it. Sorry so lengthy, but I am very
> > opinionated on this subject.
>
> > Lynn - Josh's Mom


From: Laura on 1 Feb 2008 13:42


I can certainly appreciate the hurt the girl has from losing her mother,
but she has no right to tell her father what he can or can't do, I think
she's being selfish and a tad self centered. Where is the so called
disrespect to the girls mother? She has gone on and wouldn't she want
her husband to live his life to the fullest and be happy? The daughter
should want her dad to be happy, not throw a temper tantrum because she
isn't getting what she wants. And, why couldn't this new woman be a
mother figure to this girl? What a blessing it could be. She's also
cheating her children out of what could be a very loving and supporting
grandmother.
It is truly a sad deal for all involved, everyones heart is broke and
confusion rules. The bottom line to me is we have one life, and I don't
believe for one second if we are given a chance at happiness that we
should be denied it because someone doesn't want it to happen for
whatever reason. The dad should tell his daughter "I love you and I
loved your mother very much but she is gone now, I want to be happy
again and share my life with who I believe to be a wonderful woman, if
"you" make the choice to cut me out of your life, it is your choice, it
will break my heart but I suppose I can't do anything about it"

Good luck to you all and I pray that God intervenes and takes hold of
this situation.

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