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From: Rowland McDonnell on 1 Aug 2008 10:18
Whiskers <catwheezel(a)operamail.com> wrote:

> Rowland McDonnell <real-address-in-sig(a)flur.bltigibbet> wrote:
> > Tim <timjim(a)letterboxes.org> wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >> Not sure about child abuse but certainly agree children should not be
> >> indoctrinated with such stuff till ,as you say,they are old enough to
> >> decide for themselves.
> >
> > I am sure it's child abuse to bring up a child to accept lunacy (aka
> > `religious teachings') as `higher truth'.
> >
> >> I think some would be capable of doing that several years before 18 then
> >> again quite a few wouldn't.
> >
> > I think it should be a criminal offence to indoctrinate anyone with
> > religion until they've reached 18, or maybe 21. One should be given the
> > opportunity to choose as an adult, rather than having brainwashing
> > forced on you.
>
> Tricky to achieve in practice, though, as whoever gets the job of 'caring'
> for the kids will have some sort of belief system and moral code which
> will rub off on the kids. No-one lives in a vacuum.

Oh, it's all brainwashing - but I reckon explictly religious
brainwashing's worse than the common or garden stuff and that's the
brainwashing I'd like to see cut out of child rearing.

> In practice, the best you can do is to introduce the concept that more
> than one belief system and moral code can be conceived and that there are
> many already in existence, and offering some information and examples
> about some of them.

I could do better than that - teach 'em that you're allowed to create
your own moral code if you like. Then get 'em to study ethics.

> Having kids going to the same school from a variety
> of religious and cultural backgrounds makes that a lot easier to achieve -
> and also means that the different 'systems' will sometimes clash.

That's not what normally happens in a highly religiously mixed
environment. I grew up in a highly religiously mixed environment -
during my school days, I knew most `normal' flavours of Christian,
plenty of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, one Buddhist that I can think of, *and*
a pair of Muslim apostates who advertised the fact - plus the usual
percentage of atheists and agnostics.

There was absolutely no religious tension at all - none.

My other half tells me it was like that in Mauritius when she lived
there - although I gather things now are not as easy-going on that
island as they were in the 1970s.

The part of London I mentioned is now apparently the most religiously
mixed place in the country - Harrow. Could be: there's even a Hari
Krisha school opening up soon (or maybe it already has). People like me
- white Brits - are in a minority. They're the largest single group,
mind. I think it's great (aside from the bloody awful Indian music[1]
distorting its way out of the Indian shops selling the Bollywood films
and who knows what else 'cos I couldn't even make out the script, let
alone read it).

Compare that to, say, the pair of Muslim brothers from Blackburn I knew
during my MSc course. They had been brought up in a very segregated
way, and fed frightening bullshit propaganda by the inward-looking and
self-segregating Muslim community in Blackburn.

They were *shocked* to discover that of the `ordinary white English
types' on the course, almost none were Christian (and one was
Scottish...). And they were filled with ideas about how come the
Christians in the UK were not at all happy with the whole Muslim thing
and were sure to discriminate against them.

That's what segregation - coupled with idiots in charge of the
brainwashing - does for you.

I was shocked to find out what they thought - I couldn't see how they
could have been born and raised in the UK and ended up so incredibly out
of touch with reality in that way.

They got put straight on quite a few of their mistaken opinions - in no
uncertain terms. I can recall one very cross Liverpudlian raving at
them...

(this was all in Manchester, btw)

> How
> those clashes are resolved is a learning process in itself.

There don't need to be any clashes.

> Ultimately we
> can hope that a mutually tolerated 'modus vivendi' will be arrived at.

All you have to do is throw the kids together in the same schools as
each other. Mix 'em all up at an early age and religious differences
won't be a problem for *those* kids when they grow up.

It's an easy problem to solve, it really is.

> > Thing is, all social conditioning is brainwashing, and we want some
> > social conditioning to teach kids that murder is wrong (etc). Religions
> > often do a useful job in that line.
> >
> > We've all been brainwashed one way or another - what brainwashing do you
> > want your kids to have?
>
> That indeed is the question.
>
> > It's just that too many religions end up
> > teaching hatred and exclusion and lunacy. Just look at Northern
> > Ireland. It's been getting worse since the nominal start to the end of
> > The Troubles.
> >
> > Rowland.
>
> It isn't "religions" that are doing that - it's people.

Well, yes - but what's a religion except `what people do'?

> As far as
> Northern Ireland is concerned, the damage is being done by criminals, and
> they are doing a lot less damage now than they were when they were having
> a war so that's an improvement, surely?

They're increasing the segregation and separation of the communities.
They're trying to ensure that the troubles aren't over yet. They're
trying to maintain Roman vs. Protestant antagonism for ever.

It's not helped by the state promising to help uphold religious
segregation in the school system - exactly the opposite of what needs
doing to stop the intercommunal rivalry.

Northern Ireland is a nation where if you claim to be atheist on an
official form, you'll get asked which god it is you don't believe in:
the Catholic one, or the Protestant one. Really - heard about it on the
radio from a chap who met that oddity.

Rowland.

[1] I'd not mind if it were good Indian music, but it always seemed to
be bloody awful and played far too loudly on a rubbish reproduction
system.

--
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From: Whiskers on 1 Aug 2008 14:31
On 2008-08-01, Rowland McDonnell <real-address-in-sig(a)flur.bltigibbet> wrote:
> Whiskers <catwheezel(a)operamail.com> wrote:
>
>> Rowland McDonnell <real-address-in-sig(a)flur.bltigibbet> wrote:
>> > Tim <timjim(a)letterboxes.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > [snip]
>> >
>> >> Not sure about child abuse but certainly agree children should not be
>> >> indoctrinated with such stuff till ,as you say,they are old enough to
>> >> decide for themselves.
>> >
>> > I am sure it's child abuse to bring up a child to accept lunacy (aka
>> > `religious teachings') as `higher truth'.
>> >
>> >> I think some would be capable of doing that several years before 18 then
>> >> again quite a few wouldn't.
>> >
>> > I think it should be a criminal offence to indoctrinate anyone with
>> > religion until they've reached 18, or maybe 21. One should be given the
>> > opportunity to choose as an adult, rather than having brainwashing
>> > forced on you.
>>
>> Tricky to achieve in practice, though, as whoever gets the job of 'caring'
>> for the kids will have some sort of belief system and moral code which
>> will rub off on the kids. No-one lives in a vacuum.
>
> Oh, it's all brainwashing - but I reckon explictly religious
> brainwashing's worse than the common or garden stuff and that's the
> brainwashing I'd like to see cut out of child rearing.

Until babies are born from pods and raised by robots without human
contact, that isn't going to happen - and probably not even then, as
robots don't work without software.

>> In practice, the best you can do is to introduce the concept that more
>> than one belief system and moral code can be conceived and that there are
>> many already in existence, and offering some information and examples
>> about some of them.
>
> I could do better than that - teach 'em that you're allowed to create
> your own moral code if you like. Then get 'em to study ethics.

Lord of the Flies, eh?

>> Having kids going to the same school from a variety
>> of religious and cultural backgrounds makes that a lot easier to achieve -
>> and also means that the different 'systems' will sometimes clash.
>
> That's not what normally happens in a highly religiously mixed
> environment. I grew up in a highly religiously mixed environment -
> during my school days, I knew most `normal' flavours of Christian,
> plenty of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, one Buddhist that I can think of, *and*
> a pair of Muslim apostates who advertised the fact - plus the usual
> percentage of atheists and agnostics.
>
> There was absolutely no religious tension at all - none.

Perhaps the bureaucrats didn't try to enforce silly rules that clashed
with cultural differences; perhaps the kids didn't get much parental
support when trying to rebel; perhaps the teenage rebels didn't try to use
religion as a way to get away with their rebellions.

I think we are actually agreeing with each other, in essence; the clash of
systems that lead to this thread wasn't religious, it was bureaucratic and
silly - and it was the groan-ups (sic) who were being silly.

> My other half tells me it was like that in Mauritius when she lived
> there - although I gather things now are not as easy-going on that
> island as they were in the 1970s.
>
> The part of London I mentioned is now apparently the most religiously
> mixed place in the country - Harrow. Could be: there's even a Hari
> Krisha school opening up soon (or maybe it already has). People like me
> - white Brits - are in a minority. They're the largest single group,
> mind. I think it's great (aside from the bloody awful Indian music[1]
> distorting its way out of the Indian shops selling the Bollywood films
> and who knows what else 'cos I couldn't even make out the script, let
> alone read it).

I live in a thoroughly cosmopolitan London borough; Greeks and Turks
predominate, but there's a lively Afro-Caribbean chapel two doors from my
block of flats (I can hear the music most Sundays) and at least one mosque
as well as a variety of other places of worship within a few minutes' walk.
The kids are just kids, at least until they've been got at by biggotted
adults - and those are pretty scarce around here and get little respect
from anyone. I think I've posted here before about such things as
halloween witch hats being worn over headscarves, and ladies in burkhas
escorting trick-or-treaters of all hues.

I have yet to encounter a shop of any ethnicity making use of good audio
kit to play decent music; loud and cheap seems to transcend all ethnic
boundaries. Taste doesn't come into it.

> Compare that to, say, the pair of Muslim brothers from Blackburn I knew
> during my MSc course. They had been brought up in a very segregated
> way, and fed frightening bullshit propaganda by the inward-looking and
> self-segregating Muslim community in Blackburn.
>
> They were *shocked* to discover that of the `ordinary white English
> types' on the course, almost none were Christian (and one was
> Scottish...). And they were filled with ideas about how come the
> Christians in the UK were not at all happy with the whole Muslim thing
> and were sure to discriminate against them.
>
> That's what segregation - coupled with idiots in charge of the
> brainwashing - does for you.

Quite. Which is why I'm not a fan of religiously based schools of any
sort. (Being from a Methodist/Baptist family and having been sent to a C
of E junior school might colour my feelings, of course - my family were
strangers in a very insular place, too. Cornwall in the early '50s).

> I was shocked to find out what they thought - I couldn't see how they
> could have been born and raised in the UK and ended up so incredibly out
> of touch with reality in that way.

I've encountered Bangla-Deshi people who claim to have grown up in London
but who can barely speak English or know how to get to Oxford Street from
Tower Hamlets (or why they might want to).

> They got put straight on quite a few of their mistaken opinions - in no
> uncertain terms. I can recall one very cross Liverpudlian raving at
> them...
>
> (this was all in Manchester, btw)

I can believe that, easily. I've lived there too.

>> How
>> those clashes are resolved is a learning process in itself.
>
> There don't need to be any clashes.

They're inevitable - but they don't need to cause unrest or hatred or
distrust.

>> Ultimately we
>> can hope that a mutually tolerated 'modus vivendi' will be arrived at.
>
> All you have to do is throw the kids together in the same schools as
> each other. Mix 'em all up at an early age and religious differences
> won't be a problem for *those* kids when they grow up.
>
> It's an easy problem to solve, it really is.

So long as the idiot adults stay away.

>> > Thing is, all social conditioning is brainwashing, and we want some
>> > social conditioning to teach kids that murder is wrong (etc). Religions
>> > often do a useful job in that line.
>> >
>> > We've all been brainwashed one way or another - what brainwashing do you
>> > want your kids to have?
>>
>> That indeed is the question.
>>
>> > It's just that too many religions end up
>> > teaching hatred and exclusion and lunacy. Just look at Northern
>> > Ireland. It's been getting worse since the nominal start to the end of
>> > The Troubles.
>> >
>> > Rowland.
>>
>> It isn't "religions" that are doing that - it's people.
>
> Well, yes - but what's a religion except `what people do'?

Religions don't teach conflict or hatred - but people do, often claiming
religious motives.

>> As far as
>> Northern Ireland is concerned, the damage is being done by criminals, and
>> they are doing a lot less damage now than they were when they were having
>> a war so that's an improvement, surely?
>
> They're increasing the segregation and separation of the communities.
> They're trying to ensure that the troubles aren't over yet. They're
> trying to maintain Roman vs. Protestant antagonism for ever.

Divide and rule. It works whether the would-be rulers are kings,
politicians, or bandits. Religious differences are too tempting to
resist, especially if colour or language aren't available as
distinguishers.

> It's not helped by the state promising to help uphold religious
> segregation in the school system - exactly the opposite of what needs
> doing to stop the intercommunal rivalry.
>
> Northern Ireland is a nation where if you claim to be atheist on an
> official form, you'll get asked which god it is you don't believe in:
> the Catholic one, or the Protestant one. Really - heard about it on the
> radio from a chap who met that oddity.

[...]

The way I heard it was 'but is that proddy jewish or popish jewish?'.
Madness follows when political opinions get mixed up with religion.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
From: CJ Dunnaway on 1 Aug 2008 22:44
"Whiskers" <catwheezel(a)operamail.com> wrote in message
news:slrng95vb4.b98.catwheezel(a)ID-107770.user.individual.net...
> On 2008-07-30, fergus <ferguscapewrath(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:46:12 -0700 (PDT), Evil_Nigel(a)hotmail.co.uk
>> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>>I disagree with parents irrepairably mutilating their children's
>>>bodies in the name of religion, or teaching them that they are less
>>>of
>>>a person if they don't wear a certain item of clothing or jewellery.
>>
>> I hardly think a bangle or a kippa or a turban irrepairably
>> mutilates
>> children's bodies. That's just a red herring.
>
> Genital mutilation isn't a red herring. Neither are the various
> tattoos
> scarifications and other body modifications practised in some
> cultures.
> How would a plate-lipped or giraffe-necked girl fare in a state school
> in
> the UK? Or a Maori boy with a tattood face or a Brazilian with a bone
> through his nose? (Perhaps it's significant that only the genital
> mutilations seem to be done to kids living in the UK ...).
>
> --
> -- ^^^^^^^^^^
> -- Whiskers
> -- ~~~~~~~~~~


Australian doctors warn against 'designer vagina' craze
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080801145404.zfnnx1i6&show_article=1


From: JW on 2 Aug 2008 04:23
CJ Dunnaway wrote:
> "Whiskers" <catwheezel(a)operamail.com> wrote in message
> news:slrng95vb4.b98.catwheezel(a)ID-107770.user.individual.net...
>> On 2008-07-30, fergus <ferguscapewrath(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:46:12 -0700 (PDT), Evil_Nigel(a)hotmail.co.uk
>>> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> I disagree with parents irrepairably mutilating their children's
>>>> bodies in the name of religion, or teaching them that they are less of
>>>> a person if they don't wear a certain item of clothing or jewellery.
>>>
>>> I hardly think a bangle or a kippa or a turban irrepairably mutilates
>>> children's bodies. That's just a red herring.
>>
>> Genital mutilation isn't a red herring. Neither are the various tattoos
>> scarifications and other body modifications practised in some cultures.
>> How would a plate-lipped or giraffe-necked girl fare in a state school in
>> the UK? Or a Maori boy with a tattood face or a Brazilian with a bone
>> through his nose? (Perhaps it's significant that only the genital
>> mutilations seem to be done to kids living in the UK ...).
>>
>> --
>> -- ^^^^^^^^^^
>> -- Whiskers
>> -- ~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> Australian doctors warn against 'designer vagina' craze
> http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080801145404.zfnnx1i6&show_article=1

Vaginal revirgination? I like the sound of that.
From: Evil_Nigel on 2 Aug 2008 13:56
x-no-archive: yes

On Aug 2, 12:31 am, Isla <thistle...(a)btinternet.com> wrote:

> What a cairry on over a bangle...why do schools have to have these
> daft policies in the first place?? I can understand a ban on huge,
> dangly earrings which other kids could yank at..but come on a slim,
> undangly-type bracelet?

According to a photo in my tabloid, there was a significant amount of
dangle. IMO it would have been dangerous to wear it in eg woodwork,
hairdressing, certain sports..

>...sorry, but the school in question was just
> asking for trouble, for being so bloody dictatorial!!
> isla

Apparently the board of governors deliberated quite a while on the
issue and I think they got it right. No jewellery fullstop. To anyone
except a religious bigot or a senile judge that is completely non-
descriminatory. The alternative of "no jewellery unless you're a Sikh
and even then it mustn't dangle too much" would no doubt please nulab,
who have delighted in introducing complexity into the tax and postal
systems apparently out of self-justification.

It's interesting how elf'n'safety bullies do a runner whenever they're
faced with racial or religious opposition (except Caucasian
Christians, of course).

Evil Nigel

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