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From: neo on 31 Aug 2007 09:40
I added 3 sentences regarding this subject to wikipedia article...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb

And I justified my changes on discussion page of this article as
follow.

----------------------
I have searched google, yahoo to find whether the amputees feel weight
of phantom limb. I have used all possible keywords and I have used
advance search options to search exact phrase like ''weight of phantom
limb'', ''weight of missing limb'', ''weight of phantom hand'',
''weight of phantom leg'', ''gravity acting on phantom limb'' etc.

Only the phrase ''weight of missing limb'' yields some results and
those are my own posts on usenet.

The average reader may 'assume' that as amputees feel pains, touch,
cold etc in phantom limb, they must be feeling 'weight of phantom
limb'. This is obvious because in everyday life we feel weight of real
hand alongwith pains, touch, cold, heat etc.

But research on phantom limb talks only about things like pains, touch
in phantom limb. The astronaut does also feel such senses in space but
he does not feel weight of hand like we do on earth.

The question is - if the limb of astronaut is amputed in space, will
he feel exactly same way the amputees on earth? Will he feel weight of
his amputed limb in space?

I think these questions are important for understanding neuroscience
and our universe. Hence I have added three sentences in article
'phantom limb'. If this problem is addressed in some scientific paper
or in some reliable source, I would request you to cite the source so
that average reader gets correct information about phantom limb
syndrome.

Thanks.

----------------------

Someone, who claims that he is working with famous neuroscientist V
Ramachandran, undid my changes without clarification. May be he did
not read discussion page. I undid his change again with following
clarification.

----------------------
It is again to make clear the question whether amputees feel weight of
missing limb.

1. We, on earth, do feel weight of real hand or leg alongwith pains,
touch, cold etc.

2. Astronauts in space do NOT feel weight of real hand or leg but they
do feel pains, touch, cold etc.

Current research talk about only phantom pains but is silent about
phantom gravity acting on phantom mass of phantom limb so that
amputees feel phantom weight.

Average reader may 'assume' that amputee on earth do feel weight of
phantom limb and amputed astronaut in space do not feel weight of
phantom limb. But this is just assumption. As a reader, I want
scientific evidence.

And I am not asking irrelevent information. Bang your leg on wall. You
will feel pains. But at the same time you also feel weight of leg.

And as written earlier, I have searched whole internet. I think, it is
justified to make it clear to reader that current research is silent
on this subject.
----------------------.

I just don't understand why the whole research is silent on this
subject. If our brain can produce phantom gravity, then it can change
the way we look at our universe.

From: Penpoint on 3 Sep 2007 18:46
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:40:59 -0000, neo <abhijeet(a)operamail.com>
wrote:

>----------------------
>It is again to make clear the question whether amputees feel weight of
>missing limb.
>
>1. We, on earth, do feel weight of real hand or leg alongwith pains,
>touch, cold etc.
>
>2. Astronauts in space do NOT feel weight of real hand or leg but they
>do feel pains, touch, cold etc.
>
>Current research talk about only phantom pains but is silent about
>phantom gravity acting on phantom mass of phantom limb so that
>amputees feel phantom weight.
>
>Average reader may 'assume' that amputee on earth do feel weight of
>phantom limb and amputed astronaut in space do not feel weight of
>phantom limb. But this is just assumption. As a reader, I want
>scientific evidence.
>
>And I am not asking irrelevent information. Bang your leg on wall. You
>will feel pains. But at the same time you also feel weight of leg.
>




Neo, this is interesting; however, I don't think I agree with you. I
can feel the weight of a boot on my foot, but I can't feel the weight
of my foot itself, because it's part of me and I can't feel my own
weight. I don't think you can distinguish the weight of your own body
part. If I'm trudging up a hill and get tired so that I don't know if
I can lift my feet to take another step, it's because I'm tired or out
of condition, not because of the weight of my feet. I can feel the
weight of something I'm holding in my hand, but I can't feel the
weight of my hand.

Now, even though I have phantom sensation and swear I can still move
the foot and the toes that are no longer there, there is no weight
involved in what I feel, or think I still feel. That is with my
prosthesis off. If it's on, then any weight that I notice is the
weight of the prosthesis.

So, I would say that amputees cannot feel the weight of a missing limb
because they couldn't feel the weight of the limb before it was
amputated.

--Penpoint
From: Dave on 3 Sep 2007 19:12
Penpoint wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:40:59 -0000, neo <abhijeet(a)operamail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ----------------------
>> It is again to make clear the question whether amputees feel weight of
>> missing limb.
>>
>> 1. We, on earth, do feel weight of real hand or leg alongwith pains,
>> touch, cold etc.
>>
>> 2. Astronauts in space do NOT feel weight of real hand or leg but they
>> do feel pains, touch, cold etc.
>>
>> Current research talk about only phantom pains but is silent about
>> phantom gravity acting on phantom mass of phantom limb so that
>> amputees feel phantom weight.
>>
>> Average reader may 'assume' that amputee on earth do feel weight of
>> phantom limb and amputed astronaut in space do not feel weight of
>> phantom limb. But this is just assumption. As a reader, I want
>> scientific evidence.
>>
>> And I am not asking irrelevent information. Bang your leg on wall. You
>> will feel pains. But at the same time you also feel weight of leg.
>>
>
>
>
>
> Neo, this is interesting; however, I don't think I agree with you. I
> can feel the weight of a boot on my foot, but I can't feel the weight
> of my foot itself, because it's part of me and I can't feel my own
> weight. I don't think you can distinguish the weight of your own body
> part. If I'm trudging up a hill and get tired so that I don't know if
> I can lift my feet to take another step, it's because I'm tired or out
> of condition, not because of the weight of my feet. I can feel the
> weight of something I'm holding in my hand, but I can't feel the
> weight of my hand.
>
> Now, even though I have phantom sensation and swear I can still move
> the foot and the toes that are no longer there, there is no weight
> involved in what I feel, or think I still feel. That is with my
> prosthesis off. If it's on, then any weight that I notice is the
> weight of the prosthesis.
>
> So, I would say that amputees cannot feel the weight of a missing limb
> because they couldn't feel the weight of the limb before it was
> amputated.
>
> --Penpoint

I don't think I feel "weight" on any part on my body,but I do have what
I would call muscle memory.That memory seems to work opposite this
theory of feeling weight.I spent a lot of time on crutches,left foot
pretty useless before my LBK.After the amp I was swinging that leg like
wild,the muscles "remembering" the weight of the foot and
overcompensating.That was in Feb '03 and I still swing the stump harder
than needed many times when I have the prosthesis off.

Dave

--
"...voters are not apathetic; rather, they are too deeply concerned
with the nation's serious problems to be interested in the
candidate's trivial proposals" Barry Commoner
From: Glenn Woodell on 3 Sep 2007 21:16
I don't feel the weight of my phantom limb at all. I feel its presence
and even its position but it feels completely weightless.

Weight is a force based on something's mass (amount of matter) and any
accelerations upon it - gravity for us of course.

I don't think we feel phantom forces but rather sensations based upon
nerve impulses - from nerves that are still there, at least starting
from above the site of the surgery. Since we cannot impart forces upon
the limb that is not there and send corresponding impulse signals up
the nerves to the brain, my opinoin is that we cannot feel real
gravity on the phantom limb.

Now I have felt hot, cold texture (rocks under my foot), wet, pain for
sure, itches and, believe it or not, cramps twice in my calf.

Glenn

On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:40:59 -0000, neo <abhijeet(a)operamail.com>
wrote:

>I added 3 sentences regarding this subject to wikipedia article...
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb
>
>And I justified my changes on discussion page of this article as
>follow.
>
>----------------------
>I have searched google, yahoo to find whether the amputees feel weight
>of phantom limb. I have used all possible keywords and I have used
>advance search options to search exact phrase like ''weight of phantom
>limb'', ''weight of missing limb'', ''weight of phantom hand'',
>''weight of phantom leg'', ''gravity acting on phantom limb'' etc.
>
>Only the phrase ''weight of missing limb'' yields some results and
>those are my own posts on usenet.
>
>The average reader may 'assume' that as amputees feel pains, touch,
>cold etc in phantom limb, they must be feeling 'weight of phantom
>limb'. This is obvious because in everyday life we feel weight of real
>hand alongwith pains, touch, cold, heat etc.
>
>But research on phantom limb talks only about things like pains, touch
>in phantom limb. The astronaut does also feel such senses in space but
>he does not feel weight of hand like we do on earth.
>
>The question is - if the limb of astronaut is amputed in space, will
>he feel exactly same way the amputees on earth? Will he feel weight of
>his amputed limb in space?
>
>I think these questions are important for understanding neuroscience
>and our universe. Hence I have added three sentences in article
>'phantom limb'. If this problem is addressed in some scientific paper
>or in some reliable source, I would request you to cite the source so
>that average reader gets correct information about phantom limb
>syndrome.
>
>Thanks.
>
>----------------------
>
>Someone, who claims that he is working with famous neuroscientist V
>Ramachandran, undid my changes without clarification. May be he did
>not read discussion page. I undid his change again with following
>clarification.
>
>----------------------
>It is again to make clear the question whether amputees feel weight of
>missing limb.
>
>1. We, on earth, do feel weight of real hand or leg alongwith pains,
>touch, cold etc.
>
>2. Astronauts in space do NOT feel weight of real hand or leg but they
>do feel pains, touch, cold etc.
>
>Current research talk about only phantom pains but is silent about
>phantom gravity acting on phantom mass of phantom limb so that
>amputees feel phantom weight.
>
>Average reader may 'assume' that amputee on earth do feel weight of
>phantom limb and amputed astronaut in space do not feel weight of
>phantom limb. But this is just assumption. As a reader, I want
>scientific evidence.
>
>And I am not asking irrelevent information. Bang your leg on wall. You
>will feel pains. But at the same time you also feel weight of leg.
>
>And as written earlier, I have searched whole internet. I think, it is
>justified to make it clear to reader that current research is silent
>on this subject.
>----------------------.
>
>I just don't understand why the whole research is silent on this
>subject. If our brain can produce phantom gravity, then it can change
>the way we look at our universe.

From: neo on 3 Sep 2007 22:33

Penpoint wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:40:59 -0000, neo <abhijeet(a)operamail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >----------------------
> >It is again to make clear the question whether amputees feel weight of
> >missing limb.
> >
> >1. We, on earth, do feel weight of real hand or leg alongwith pains,
> >touch, cold etc.
> >
> >2. Astronauts in space do NOT feel weight of real hand or leg but they
> >do feel pains, touch, cold etc.
> >
> >Current research talk about only phantom pains but is silent about
> >phantom gravity acting on phantom mass of phantom limb so that
> >amputees feel phantom weight.
> >
> >Average reader may 'assume' that amputee on earth do feel weight of
> >phantom limb and amputed astronaut in space do not feel weight of
> >phantom limb. But this is just assumption. As a reader, I want
> >scientific evidence.
> >
> >And I am not asking irrelevent information. Bang your leg on wall. You
> >will feel pains. But at the same time you also feel weight of leg.
> >
>
>
>
>
> Neo, this is interesting; however, I don't think I agree with you. I
> can feel the weight of a boot on my foot, but I can't feel the weight
> of my foot itself, because it's part of me and I can't feel my own
> weight. I don't think you can distinguish the weight of your own body
> part. If I'm trudging up a hill and get tired so that I don't know if
> I can lift my feet to take another step, it's because I'm tired or out
> of condition, not because of the weight of my feet. I can feel the
> weight of something I'm holding in my hand, but I can't feel the
> weight of my hand.
>
> Now, even though I have phantom sensation and swear I can still move
> the foot and the toes that are no longer there, there is no weight
> involved in what I feel, or think I still feel. That is with my
> prosthesis off. If it's on, then any weight that I notice is the
> weight of the prosthesis.
>
> So, I would say that amputees cannot feel the weight of a missing limb
> because they couldn't feel the weight of the limb before it was
> amputated.

Thanks for your reply, Penpoint. Amputees say that they feel presence
of amputated limb 'as if it is still there'.

Perhaps you never thought that way but we feel weight of our body
parts. Think about astronauts in space. They do not feel weight of
hand or leg when they stretch it horizontal.

This whole confusion is because of claims by amputees that they still
feel presence of missing limb. Whether that 'presence' include weight
is unclear.

I was talking to a student of world famous neuroscientist V R
Ramachandran. He searched web, read books but even he could not tell
why scientists never asked question about weight of missing limb.

So if you do not feel weight of missing limb, you should not use
sentence like 'as if missing limb is still there'. Common person
'assume' that amputees also feel weight of missing limb.

I will request all amputees to close your eyes, concentrate on missing
limb, feel. And tell do you feel weight of missing limb.

Remember this specific subject is not documented on web or in any
book. So help to clear it once and all.

Thanks.

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