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From: neo on 3 Sep 2007 23:11

Glenn Woodell wrote:
> I don't feel the weight of my phantom limb at all. I feel its presence
> and even its position but it feels completely weightless.
>
> Weight is a force based on something's mass (amount of matter) and any
> accelerations upon it - gravity for us of course.
>
> I don't think we feel phantom forces but rather sensations based upon
> nerve impulses - from nerves that are still there, at least starting
> from above the site of the surgery. Since we cannot impart forces upon
> the limb that is not there and send corresponding impulse signals up
> the nerves to the brain, my opinoin is that we cannot feel real
> gravity on the phantom limb.
>
> Now I have felt hot, cold texture (rocks under my foot), wet, pain for
> sure, itches and, believe it or not, cramps twice in my calf.

This is world famous scientist...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilayanur_S._Ramachandran

And this is his student Edward Hubbard, who published some paper with
Dr Ramachandran...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Edhubbard

And this is what he said in reply to me on wiki...
Quote starts.
----------------------
:The point is one of giving [[WP:Weight#Undue_weight|undue weight]] to
this question. I have again reverted the bold-face stand-alone line.
This is not so incredibly important that it deseves a whole line to
itself in bold. The parenthetical comment is appropriate, but even
that might not be correct. I remember that Ramachandran talks about a
congenital phantom limb patient who felt her arms swinging in his book
(i.e., the weight of her non-existant limbs). I'll have to look up
the exact page number before I add it, but your failure to find
something on the web does not mean that scientific research is silent
on this topic. It just means that it isn't there on the web.
[[User:Edhubbard|Edhubbard]] 16:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

::On page 41 of ''Phantoms in the Brain'' Ramachandran talks about a
woman (Mirabelle, not her real name) who reports being born with
phantom limbs which are too short. She also notes that the arms hang
straight down, and do not swing when she walks, although they do
gesticuate when she talks. Similarly, on page 42, he recounts the
case of John McGrath, who reports that his missing arm will attempt to
balance him, for example, when he plays tennis. "When I play tennis,"
he said, "my phantom will do what it's supposed to do. It'll want to
throw the ball up when I serve or it will try to give me balance in a
hard shot." These passages suggest that there is a feeling of weight,
or at least mass, in the phantom limb. I think that your question
also raises another question, which is, exactly what is our sense of
weight. Is it just gravity, or is it a combination of mass (which
astronauts in space can feel. Things are still massive, and easier or
harder to accelerate and decelerate in space) and gravity... and how
is that sensed? Proprioception, through cutaneous receptors? Through
muscle fibers? I think you'll have to be much clearer about exactly
what it is that you would like to know, and perhaps you need to start
looking at better sources than the web.

----------------------
..Quote ends.

Now isn't that interesting that even world famous scientist Dr
Ramachandran don't know anything about 'weight of missing limb'.

And isn't that interesting that his student think that amputees do
feel weight of missing limb.

Perhaps you should tell them that amputees don't feel weight of
missing limb.

Anyway, thanks Glenn.

From: Cerumen on 4 Sep 2007 03:50

"Dave" <nodlee5spam(a)fuse.net> wrote in message
news:2f6b4$46dc94ed$4831158c$32005(a)FUSE.NET...
> Penpoint wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:40:59 -0000, neo <abhijeet(a)operamail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ----------------------
>>> It is again to make clear the question whether amputees feel weight of
>>> missing limb.
>>>
>>> 1. We, on earth, do feel weight of real hand or leg alongwith pains,
>>> touch, cold etc.
>>>
>>> 2. Astronauts in space do NOT feel weight of real hand or leg but they
>>> do feel pains, touch, cold etc.
>>>
>>> Current research talk about only phantom pains but is silent about
>>> phantom gravity acting on phantom mass of phantom limb so that
>>> amputees feel phantom weight.
>>>
>>> Average reader may 'assume' that amputee on earth do feel weight of
>>> phantom limb and amputed astronaut in space do not feel weight of
>>> phantom limb. But this is just assumption. As a reader, I want
>>> scientific evidence.
>>>
>>> And I am not asking irrelevent information. Bang your leg on wall. You
>>> will feel pains. But at the same time you also feel weight of leg.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Neo, this is interesting; however, I don't think I agree with you. I
>> can feel the weight of a boot on my foot, but I can't feel the weight
>> of my foot itself, because it's part of me and I can't feel my own
>> weight. I don't think you can distinguish the weight of your own body
>> part. If I'm trudging up a hill and get tired so that I don't know if
>> I can lift my feet to take another step, it's because I'm tired or out
>> of condition, not because of the weight of my feet. I can feel the
>> weight of something I'm holding in my hand, but I can't feel the
>> weight of my hand. Now, even though I have phantom sensation and swear I
>> can still move
>> the foot and the toes that are no longer there, there is no weight
>> involved in what I feel, or think I still feel. That is with my
>> prosthesis off. If it's on, then any weight that I notice is the
>> weight of the prosthesis. So, I would say that amputees cannot feel the
>> weight of a missing limb
>> because they couldn't feel the weight of the limb before it was
>> amputated. --Penpoint
>
> I don't think I feel "weight" on any part on my body,but I do have what I
> would call muscle memory.That memory seems to work opposite this theory of
> feeling weight.I spent a lot of time on crutches,left foot pretty useless
> before my LBK.After the amp I was swinging that leg like wild,the muscles
> "remembering" the weight of the foot and overcompensating.That was in Feb
> '03 and I still swing the stump harder than needed many times when I have
> the prosthesis off.
>
I experienced weightlessness in flight a few times before my accident where
I lost my arm but obviously not since. The feeling of weight is as you say
from muscle feedback not nerve feedback. I still "feel" my missing arm via
nerve impulses but as I do not have anything connected to the muscle groups
that used to operate it I have no feedback of weight. In weightless
conditions you feel the "weight" of the arm/leg or whatever only when you
move it as it still has mass and reacts against the muscles although to a
lesser extent as it does not have gravity to fight.

--
Chris, West Cork, Ireland.
Festina lente


From: Glenn Woodell on 4 Sep 2007 11:32
On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 02:33:28 -0000, neo <abhijeet(a)operamail.com>
wrote:

>

>I will request all amputees to close your eyes, concentrate on missing
>limb, feel. And tell do you feel weight of missing limb.
>
>Remember this specific subject is not documented on web or in any
>book. So help to clear it once and all.
>
>Thanks.

I suggest that amputees and non-amputees alike close their eyes and
with their feet up on a stool and completely relaxed for example, do
you feel weight?

I guess that depends on what you are really asking. I feel the force
of the stool back up against my heel but I no longer feel the weight
or the force of the mass of my leg with respect to the rest of my
body.

Same if I'm standing. I do not feel the weight of my sound leg any
more or less than on my phantom leg. When I start to move or if I
suspend my leg in the air, unsopported, I feel its weight and the
effect of the weight on the rest of the body.

Glenn
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