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From: john on 6 Aug 2008 16:17
On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:51:19 -0400, Susan <nevermind(a)nomail.com>
wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>john wrote:
>
>> I agree with your comments about fat, but protein is converted to
>> glucose ONLY IF THE BODY NEEDS IT. Here is a quote from "Diabetes
>> Solution" by Bernstein, M.D.
>>
>> "Protein foods are only about 20 percent protein by weight (6 grams
>> per ounce", the rest being fat, water, or undigestible "gristle." The
>> liver, instructed by the hormone glucagon, can ...very slowly...
>> transform as much as 52 percent of the above 6 grams per ounce into
>> glucose IF BLOOD SUGAR DESCENDS TOO LOW OR
>> THE BODY'S OTHER AMINO ACID NEEDS HAVE BEEN MET."
>>
>
>
>I should have phrased it "up to 58%" which is the figure I've most often
>encountered.
>
>Susan

Yes, 58% is the figure I've most often encountered too, but this is a
direct quote from Bernstein's book.
From: john on 6 Aug 2008 16:41
On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:20:52 -0700 (PDT), Doug Freyburger
<dfreybur(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

>john <jvb...(a)cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> I agree with your comments about fat, but �protein is converted to
>> glucose ONLY IF THE BODY NEEDS IT. �Here is a quote from "Diabetes
>> Solution" by Bernstein, M.D.
>
>It's interesting how you define need in your quote below.
>
>> "Protein foods are only about 20 percent protein by weight (6 grams
>> per ounce", the rest being fat, water, or undigestible "gristle." �The
>> liver, instructed by the hormone glucagon, can ...very slowly...
>> transform as much as 52 percent of the above 6 grams per ounce into
>> glucose IF BLOOD SUGAR DESCENDS TOO LOW OR
>> THE BODY'S OTHER AMINO ACID NEEDS HAVE BEEN MET."
>
>You clearly do not understand the meaning of the word "OR" in
>your quote above.
>
>1) The body will convert protein to glucose if blood sugar goes
>too low. This happens independent of the body's amino acid
>needs for protein building and as such it is a metabolic starvation
>response - The body burns lean faster than it burns fat because
>in a famine the people whose metabolism drops as fast as
>possible are the ones still alive next year when the harvest
>happens.
>
>2) The body will convert protein to glucose when the needs for
>amino acids for protein building have been met. This is
>independent of blood sugar level and as such is a metabolic
>response to *excess* protein calories.
>
>In other words, excess protein is converted to glucose, just
>like posters have written. The word "excess" matters, just
>like the word "OR" matters in your quote.


Thank you, Doug, for your astute comments and I agree with you. I
have posted this quote several times in this group and have never been
challenged before. Which made me wonder if anybody even read my
message.

Dr. Bernstein was explaining that "you can quite easily survive on a
diet in which you would eat no carbohydrate." And he went on to point
out that the two dietary sources of blood sugar are carbohydrates and
protein, and you can meet your carbohydrate needs by eating protein
(and fats) only; leading to the quote above.

Thanks again for you edifying comments.
From: Susan on 6 Aug 2008 16:42
x-no-archive: yes

john wrote:

> Yes, 58% is the figure I've most often encountered too, but this is a
> direct quote from Bernstein's book.

The two are not incompatible, you seem to have some sort of fixed idea.

The fact is that if you're eating low carb, much of the protein you eat
is converted to glucose.

Susan
From: Doug Freyburger on 7 Aug 2008 12:03
john <jvb...(a)cox.net> wrote:
> Doug Freyburger <dfrey...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >In other words, excess protein is converted to glucose, just
> >like posters have written. The word "excess" matters, just
> >like the word "OR" matters in your quote.
>
> Thank you, Doug, for your astute comments and I agree with you. I
> have posted this quote several times in this group and have never been
> challenged before. Which made me wonder if anybody even read my
> message.

The question becomes how much carb, protein or fat is
just barely enough and when does it start to be excess.
It's not an easy question to answer because if you take
the essential amount of dietary carbs (zero), dietary
polyunsaturated fatty acids (ten of grams), dietary protein
(tens of grams) the total isn't enough total calories for the
day. So metabolic excess isn't caloric excess. Not a
simple system because of that.

> Dr. Bernstein was explaining that "you can quite easily survive on a
> diet in which you would eat no carbohydrate." And he went on to point
> out that the two dietary sources of blood sugar are carbohydrates and
> protein, and you can meet your carbohydrate needs by eating protein
> (and fats) only; leading to the quote above.

Consider that carb, protein and fat each have different ways
to handle and store excess grams.

Carb - Can be synthesized so is not essential. Excess carbs
can be stored as glycogen but the amount that can be stored
is very limited. Low fat plans tend to keep the storage maxed
out; low carb plans tend to keep the storage minned out close
to zero. Excess is converted to saturated fat for storage in a
process that's metabolically inefficient - This is the metabolic
edge of low fat plans. When carb stores are near zero the
cravings for carb disappear - This is the appetite suppresion
edge of low carb plans. Carbs are burned at near 100%
efficiency. Dietary carbs may not be essential but the
optimal intake level is not zero - If it were every low carb book
would tell us to do that.

Protein - Certain amino acids can not be synthesized so
protein is essential. Excess protein might have some tiny
amount of storage potential but any such amount is small
even compared to glycogen storage. Daily needs for protein
are in the range of tens of grams and that includes growth of
muscle as well as cellular rebuilding. Excess is converted
to glucose at near 58% efficiency - This is one of the two
sources of blood sugar in people fasting or eating zero carb
diets. Nearly all Americans eat more protein than is needed.

Fat - Certain polyunsaturated amino acids can not be
synthesized so fat is essential. The body can store nearly
unlimited fat. Daily needs for polyunsaturated fatty acids
are the the range of tens of grams for cell membranes,
nerves and cellular processes. The burning of fat for fuel
is not tightly bound to dietary intake the way it is with carbs
and protein. When fat is burned for fuel about 10% of the
energy is in the form of glucose from the glycerol that
binds the fatty acids. The fatty acids can be burned by
converting them the acteyl-CoA slowly for aerobic
respiration and/or by converting them to ketones quickly.
Thus spilling ketones int he urine is a sign that fat is being
burned quickly, not quite directly correlated with fat loss.

The above addresses excess by type but not by total.
Glucose in the blood is driven by type, though.
From: Tom G. on 9 Aug 2008 00:06

"Susan" <nevermind(a)nomail.com> wrote in message
news:6fuglqFdf3v9U5(a)mid.individual.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> john wrote:
>
>> Yes, 58% is the figure I've most often encountered too, but this is a
>> direct quote from Bernstein's book.
>
> The two are not incompatible, you seem to have some sort of fixed idea.
>
> The fact is that if you're eating low carb, much of the protein you eat is
> converted to glucose.

Well, there seems to be some conflicting info out there. The impression
one gets from some sources, is that 58% of all protein is converted to
glucose, no matter what the body's demand of protein for repair and
building. Other people claim, only the excess amount is broken down into
glucose.
Many diabetics say that protein spikes their readings. Maybe not as much
as carbs do, but there is a definite rise. This is likely true, although
since many are scared to eat too much fat, they may be eating too much lean
and the excess is dealt with in this manner.
There was a thread on another board where a person has carefully tracked
their blood sugar after every meal. When eating 80% fat and 20% protein, his
blood sugar has, over time, come down lower than he would have guessed. He
postulates that a person may not be fully keto-adapted unless they are
eating the right amount of protein, so as to not increase blood sugar.
So, which is it? Is the universal percentage of 58 an average of
conversion on a typical diet? This could be something like, the first 42% is
used as building blocks or repair at near 100% efficiency, and the access
(for an average diet) that is not needed is then used as energy. Or, 58% of
all protein is converted to glucose always, and the body just gets whatever
is not converted.
Now, I don't believe that everything happens at 100% efficiency in the
body. But it is more likely that whatever protein is needed would be taken
up right away in the most efficient way possible. The rest that is not
needed for repair would be converted to glucose. It would be nice if the
excess was converted to muscle, but apparently the body likes to find a
happy medium between what is needed, sustainable, or not necessary for
survival and regulates things as such.
Perhaps a diabetic has a faulty metabolism that tricks the body into
believing that more glucose is more important than anything else and more
conversion to glucose is done. Maybe a more sedentary lifestyle would mean
the body needs even less protein for repair than an active person.
It's almost useless to google for what is correct, because there are
arguments for both. You would think that if it was all so cut and dry, that
there would be no question as to what exactly happens and why it does so.
The only consistency is the 58% number.

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