Time to Start Shooting "animal rights" Psychopaths
in [Vegetarian]
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From: Zapanaz on 5 Jul 2008 17:42 Rupert hunched over a computer, typing feverishly; Thunder crashed, Rupert laughed madly, then wrote: >Most animals in modern farms do not have decent lives, and this is a >consequence of the mindset which says that it is okay for us to use >animals for our own ends. No, it is purely a result of the mindset of the animals themselves. Do they meditate? Do they pursue any form of self-improvement whatsoever? No, they do not. They could be taking college courses, learning art history, listening to music. But do they even make the EFFORT? Hell no. And you want me to feel sorry for them. -- Zapanaz International Satanic Conspiracy Customer Support Specialist http://joecosby.com/ Religion is not meant to be entertaining...if that is what a person is looking for in a religion, they might as well be atheist. - Anon :: Currently listening to Concierto de Aranjuez - 1. Allegro con spirito, 1939, by Rodrigo, from "Concierto de Aranjuez/Fantasia para un gentilhombre"
From: Zapanaz on 5 Jul 2008 17:43 Dutch hunched over a computer, typing feverishly; Thunder crashed, Dutch laughed madly, then wrote: >Rupert wrote: >> Veganism is a perfectly reasonable strategy >> for reducing suffering, > >It may be a fairly effective strategy but "perfectly reasonable" would >be an overstatement. Existence is suffering. There is no "fairly effective strategy" to reduce suffering. -- Zapanaz International Satanic Conspiracy Customer Support Specialist http://joecosby.com/ The stupider people think you are, the more suprised they are when you kill them. :: Currently listening to Concierto de Aranjuez - 1. Allegro con spirito, 1939, by Rodrigo, from "Concierto de Aranjuez/Fantasia para un gentilhombre"
From: Rupert on 5 Jul 2008 17:56 On Jul 6, 5:43 am, Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl> wrote: > Dutch hunched over a computer, typing feverishly; > Thunder crashed, Dutch laughed madly, then wrote: > > >Rupert wrote: > >> Veganism is a perfectly reasonable strategy > >> for reducing suffering, > > >It may be a fairly effective strategy but "perfectly reasonable" would > >be an overstatement. > > Existence is suffering. There is no "fairly effective strategy" to > reduce suffering. > That's stupid. If a few million people go vegan and fewer factory- farms are built and fewer animals are brought into existence to lead horrible lives, then something has been done. If Henry Spira managed to get major cosmetics companies to develop an alternative to the Draize test, then something has been done. If a few million dollars are donated to UNICEF and a few thousand under-five deaths are prevented, then something has been done. Preventing an under-five death, or getting a company to stop dripping cosmetics into the eyes of millions of conscious rabbits and holding them in shackles for two weeks while they go blind, is not a trivial accomplishment. You might as well say "Why should I bother to get out of bed in the morning?" If you want to reduce suffering, there's plenty you can do. It may not be high on your list of priorities, that's fine. But you shouldn't pretend it's not one of your options.
From: Rupert on 5 Jul 2008 17:58 On Jul 6, 5:42 am, Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl> wrote: > Rupert hunched over a computer, typing feverishly; > Thunder crashed, Rupert laughed madly, then wrote: > > >Most animals in modern farms do not have decent lives, and this is a > >consequence of the mindset which says that it is okay for us to use > >animals for our own ends. > > No, it is purely a result of the mindset of the animals themselves. > Do they meditate? Do they pursue any form of self-improvement > whatsoever? No, they do not. They could be taking college courses, > learning art history, listening to music. But do they even make the > EFFORT? Hell no. And you want me to feel sorry for them. > > -- > Zapanaz > International Satanic Conspiracy > Customer Support Specialisthttp://joecosby.com/ > Religion is not meant to be entertaining...if that is what a person is > looking for in a religion, they might as well be atheist. > - Anon > > :: Currently listening to Concierto de Aranjuez - 1. Allegro con spirito, 1939, by Rodrigo, from "Concierto de Aranjuez/Fantasia para un gentilhombre" I read a book by Victor Frankl called "Man's Search for Meaning". He discussed his experiences at Auschwitz and explained how they led him to develop his own school of psychotherapy. Now there was someone who approached his situation in a constructive way instead of whingeing about it.
From: Zapanaz on 5 Jul 2008 19:04
Rupert hunched over a computer, typing feverishly; Thunder crashed, Rupert laughed madly, then wrote: >On Jul 6, 5:43�am, Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl> wrote: >> Dutch hunched over a computer, typing feverishly; >> Thunder crashed, Dutch laughed madly, then wrote: >> >> >Rupert wrote: >> >> Veganism is a perfectly reasonable strategy >> >> for reducing suffering, >> >> >It may be a fairly effective strategy but "perfectly reasonable" would >> >be an overstatement. >> >> Existence is suffering. �There is no "fairly effective strategy" to >> reduce suffering. >> > >That's stupid. If a few million people go vegan and fewer factory- >farms are built and fewer animals are brought into existence to lead >horrible lives, then something has been done. If Henry Spira managed >to get major cosmetics companies to develop an alternative to the >Draize test, then something has been done. If a few million dollars >are donated to UNICEF and a few thousand under-five deaths are >prevented, then something has been done. Preventing an under-five >death, or getting a company to stop dripping cosmetics into the eyes >of millions of conscious rabbits and holding them in shackles for two >weeks while they go blind, is not a trivial accomplishment. > >You might as well say "Why should I bother to get out of bed in the >morning?" > >If you want to reduce suffering, there's plenty you can do. It may not >be high on your list of priorities, that's fine. But you shouldn't >pretend it's not one of your options. What are you going to do for those poor animals in the wild, torn to shreds in terror and agony by wild predators, dying of horrible diseases and starvation? If you can find alternatives to existing ways of handling animals by humans that are less painful to the animal, by all means go for it. And if you personally want to try to live a Buddhist monk's life by refusing to cause any suffering to any sentient being, I respect that to some extent. I live by that standard, to some extent, because I think it's the only really logical basis for morality. But thinking you are going to "reduce suffering" on a global level by going vegan is getting a little absurd to me. Things live and die and in doing so they suffer. Reducing suffering for all sentient beings is an idea that comes from Buddhism, but westerners want to pick and choose the bits of Buddhism they like, so what you end up with suits your lifestyle and makes you feel more moral but doesn't hold together as a coherent meaningful whole. You personally going vegan might very well reduce some suffering of some animals. Personally I think the degree of it is very tiny, not only on the scale of humans eating meat in general but on a world-wide scale. Doing it to make yourself feel better about yourself, or to give yourself a better karma if you believe in that kind of thing, makes perfect sense. But thinking you have a "strategy to reduce suffering" by not personally eating meat is ridiculous. Which is why, inevitably, veganism as a way of "reducing suffering", or going fur-free, or whatever, becomes something that everybody should do. That's why there are protests. Because it only makes SENSE if it's global. Then, I guess, you will "reduce suffering" in a largish way. I still think it would not be very substantial, because I think suffering is inherent in life, but imposing that morality on others is the logical extension of the idea of a "strategy to reduce suffering". It's not that I'm criticising veganism as a personal moral choice, although I think it's illogical except as, as I said, a way of making yourself feel better about yourself, or of improving karma if you believe in karma. * But it's inherent in the idea of is as a "strategy" that it is not about a personal choice. That there are ANY kind of protestors proves that. That there is even a hint of activism or even moral lecturing proves that. And it is really just a kind of lifestyle choice. You can go vegan, and say to yourself at night, "I have not inflicted any suffering on any animal", and still eat well enough. How far would you really take it though? There were monks in the middle ages who refused to swat fleas off of them, because fleas are God's creatures, and it was wrong to deny them their meal (which does cause them suffering). Do you take it that far? Those poor fleas are suffering from hunger. If you want to completely reduce suffering, it's not enough to just not kill a flea. There are fleas out there starving. You should seek them out and bring them into your home. And every wild animal out there suffering, you should bring them home, make them beds, and feed them. And what about people? You are, of course, as part of your "strategy to reduce suffering", actively seeking out the winos in the gutters and bringing them home to eat and sleep in a nice warm bed? And alchohol withdrawals are a form of suffering, you should really get them nice and liqoured up while you're at it. That is, if your "strategy to reduce suffering" is real, and not just a convenient lifestyle choice that makes you feel good about yourself. * Or as seeing that other living thing and thinking "what's inside there is the same as me"; which, personally, I think is a profound realization. -- Zapanaz International Satanic Conspiracy Customer Support Specialist http://joecosby.com/ "Am I retarded or am I just overjoyed?" - Green Day :: Currently listening to Fantasia para un gentilhombre - IV: Canario, 1954, by Rodrigo/Manuel Barrueco, from "Rodrigo - Concertos - Songs With Guitar" |