From: mainframetech on
On Feb 2, 2:59 am, JohnDoe <d...(a)spam.me> wrote:

I see that we've fully entered the namecalling and insult phase of
our discussion. I have learned over the last week or two by reading a
few of these topics, that some people seem to devolve to insults and
other negative comments. I have seen a document floating around here
to do with warning new users about "Pharma-phloggers" (I like that
better than 'bloggers'), and I wonder if some of the posters here are
some of those folks, because they display the same characterisitics
mentioned in the warning.
If that's true, it's so easy to recognize these folks, but I wonder
too what led them to do what they do. Are they paid? That would make
some sense. Are they in desperate need of spitting venom at folks,
using the phony excuse that they're saving them from bad medicine?
That makes no sense. They would be more decent to folks to convince
them of their point. Are they just coming here and posting to look
knowledgeable and wise and convince the newcomers that they know all?
That makes no sense. Who would insult folks they want to convince of
something? Naah, to me only the money motive seems to fit.
Lordee...I think what it must be like selling your soul by misleading
folks about real dangers in the medical community, and it distresses
me. Those poor people.

Chris


From: Mike on
David Wright wrote:
>
> Children are almost never given TT or Td. The amount of thimerosal in
> even the heaviest pediatric HepB dose is less than you'd get from a
> tuna sandwich.

It is not so innocuous when you take body weight into account. One tuna
sandwich for a 9 lb infant is like 20 sandwiches for a 180 lb adult.
Actually it is even worse than that because an infant body is much
weaker, especially for very young children who do not have blood brain
barrier yet.
From: Peter Bowditch on
"JOHN" <john(a)btinternet.com> wrote:

>
>"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname(a)ratbags.com> wrote in message
>news:qld6s2pjprep5uq1uf8ru4iltqrt5v5ndk(a)4ax.com...
>
>>
>> Read my lips. I never said that he said that his son's autism wasn't
>> caused by mercury, I said that he said that his son's autism could
>> only have been caused by MMR. If it could only have been caused by MMR
>> then it could not have been caused by mercury. That is a simple
>> logical position and requires no mention of any other possible cause.
>> One possible cause means one possible cause.
>
>You say that but lets see his actual words to that effect

Right there on the whale.to web site. I have already provided the
reference, so you will have to look it up yourself. You are familiar
with the whale.to site, I take it?

>
>and is he your straw man?
>
>>
>> Child waster.
>> --
>
>Yes, you support that
>
>"The computer records from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program,
>obtained by Gannett News Service using the Freedom of Information Act as
>part of a four-month study of federal immunization policy, reveal: Of 253
>infant death cases awarded more than $61 million by the U.S. Court of
>Federal Claims in the 1990s under the compensation program, 224, or 86
>percent, were attributed to vaccination with DTP, the diphtheria, tetanus
>and pertussis (whooping cough) shot. In these cases, mortality was
>originally attributed to SIDS in 90, or 40 percent, of them. Of 771
>total claims filed by parents from 1990 through mid-1998, 660, or 86
>percent, contained assertions that DTP was the cause of death. And 43
>percent were classified by medical authorities at time of death as SIDS
>cases."--NVIC http://www.909shot.com
>

Nothing there to do with the truth, just the words or a professional
child hater.
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
From: Peter Bowditch on
"8'FED" <dragon(a)netyp.com.au> wrote:

>JohnDoe wrote:
>> JOHN wrote:
>> > "Peter Bowditch" wrote:
>>
>> >>>who cares what he thinks, MMR obviously caused his sons MMR
>>
>> >>You care enough about what he thinks to demand that I show you where
>> >>he says it. If you think his opinion is irrelevant, perhaps you should
>> >>contact whoever owns whale.to and get Gallup's article removed.
>>
>> > LOL. You used his "alleged" comment about autism not being caused by
>> > mercury but only by MMR, which I asked you to produce,
>>
>> > to make out that is waht we all think
>> > so you don't produce that, only his comment about MMR
>> > time waster
>>
>> Having trouble with the meaning of the word 'only'? If Gallup claims
>> that the *only* possible cause of autism is MMR, then he claims, albeit
>> implicitely, that mercury (read: thimerosal, which is not mercury) does
>> not cause autism. Like Peter Bowditch said, that is what 'only' means.
>
>Yeah, but in the quotation under discussion, the word "ON" has three
>occurences, the word "OUR" has two occurences, but the word
>"ONLY" (which lies between the two alphabetically) has no occurences
>whatsoever.
>
>I don't like to sound as though I'm defending John in any way (let me
>be explicit: neither mercury nor MMR cause or influence the onset of
>autism), but in this case I must confess that I don't follow the sense
>of Peter's argument.
>
>If the point of contention were over whether I have said: "Being hit
>on the head with a plank of wood is the only possible cause for any
>headache; nobody ever suffers a headache due to being hit on the head
>with an iron bar", then it would not be pertinent to quote me as
>saying: "I have established to my satisfaction that my headache was
>caused by being hit on the head with a plank of wood".
>
>For the same reason, I don't see the pertinence of the quotation Peter
>chose to share.
>
>Adrian.

Sometimes I feel like poking anti-vaccination liars with a sharp
pointy stick for no other reason than they need poking with a sharp
pointy stick.

I keep seeing absolute statements about the cause of autism. The title
of this thread "Thimerosal Definite Cause Of Autism" is an example.
Leave aside for the moment the fact that there is no scientifically
verifiable link between thimerosal and autism (there is a reason I
coined the term "anti-vaccination liar"), that seems to be a statement
which attempts to restrict the causes of autism. It just happens that
one of the leading anti-vaccination liars claims that, without any
doubt, MMR is the cause of autism. For some reason, however, John
doesn't accept what is written on the whale.to site (a skepticism
shared by most people who can think).

I like my anti-vaccination liars to be consistent, but it seems that
whatever you say to them they have another lie to use as an answer.

Back in April 2006 I identified 13 definite causes of autism:

1. The first "M" in MMR.
2. The "R" in MMR.
3. The "mercury" in DTP.
4. Something in polio vaccine (but only transmitted to those who don't
die of cancer because of the SV40 virus).
5. Pasteurised milk. (Joe Mercola!!)
6. Chicken pox vaccine (if given to a child within a century either
side of any other live vaccine).
7. The "mercury" in vaccines given to the father (!), passed on
through sperm cells.
8. Other people taking drugs and transmitting it by shared
consciousness. (Autism is apparently just a specific incidence of the
psychological problems caused by someone else in the family taking
psychiatric medication. I wish I could make up this sort of stuff!)
9. Aluminium in vaccine adjuvants.
10. Fluoride in the water. (Joe Mercola again - I love his
consistency.)
11. Aspartame (of course).
12. MSG (keep the kids away from pizza!).
13. Dioxin. (It must be true because it's in the Bible and the Bible
Code is never wrong.)

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/history/2006/04april.htm#22autism

At the time I said that my favourite was the pasteurised milk, but now
I think it is the Bible Code.

Then there's the list I gave as part of the citation when Joe Mercola
won the 2006 Anus Maximus Award. As I said above, I love Joe's
consistency.

Pasteurised milk
Fluoride (when consumed by pregnant women)
Aluminium
Mercury (of course)
MMR (of course)
Malnutrition
Lactose (it goes with the malnutrition)
Glutamine (makes autism worse)
"An excess of grains, sugars, underground vegetables, and any fluid
other than water" in the diet

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/history/2006/2006awards.htm
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
From: Jan on
On Feb 2, 8:40 pm, Peter Bowditch <myfirstn...(a)ratbags.com> wrote:
> "JOHN" <j...(a)btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstn...(a)ratbags.com> wrote in message
> >news:qld6s2pjprep5uq1uf8ru4iltqrt5v5ndk(a)4ax.com...
>
> >> Read my lips. I never said that he said that his son's autism wasn't
> >> caused by mercury, I said that he said that his son's autism could
> >> only have been caused by MMR. If it could only have been caused by MMR
> >> then it could not have been caused by mercury. That is a simple
> >> logical position and requires no mention of any other possible cause.
> >> One possible cause means one possible cause.
>
> >You say that but lets see his actual words to that effect
>
> Right there on the whale.to web site. I have already provided the
> reference, so you will have to look it up yourself. You are familiar
> with the whale.to site, I take it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >and is he your straw man?
>
> >> Child waster.
> >> --
>
> >Yes, you support that
>
> >"The computer records from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program,
> >obtained by Gannett News Service using the Freedom of Information Act as
> >part of a four-month study of federal immunization policy, reveal: Of 253
> >infant death cases awarded more than $61 million by the U.S. Court of
> >Federal Claims in the 1990s under the compensation program, 224, or 86
> >percent, were attributed to vaccination with DTP, the diphtheria, tetanus
> >and pertussis (whooping cough) shot. In these cases, mortality was
> >originally attributed to SIDS in 90, or 40 percent, of them. Of 771
> >total claims filed by parents from 1990 through mid-1998, 660, or 86
> >percent, contained assertions that DTP was the cause of death. And 43
> >percent were classified by medical authorities at time of death as SIDS
> >cases."--NVIC http://www.909shot.com
>
> Nothing there to do with the truth, just the words or a professional
> child hater.
> --
> Peter Bowditch
>
Another blatant lie. The norm for Peter Bowditch.

OUR MISSION:
The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is a national, non-
profit organization dedicated to preventing vaccine injuries and
deaths through public education and defending the right to informed
consent to vaccination.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/04/earlyshow/contributors/emilysenay/main531638.shtml

CBS) For the 11,000 babies born in the U.S. every day, pediatricians
recommend a series of 20 vaccinations protecting against 11 diseases
before each child reaches 18 months.

Vaccination rates have climbed to record levels in recent years,
indicating that many parents take these recommendations to heart.
However, some families still remain fearful.

At six and a half years old, Alexa Richardson has never been
immunized. Neither has her two-year-old sister, Erica. Their mother
vetoed vaccinations after reading her own baby book.

"I remember looking down and seeing 106 fever, 10 days, unresponsive
after one of the immunizations," says Dawn Richardson. She had bad
reactions to her measles, mumps and rubella vaccines, which were
separate at the time. She also got sick after receiving smallpox
vaccine. Her husband, Scott, has a family history of auto-immune
reactions.

Medical reasons kept the Richardsons from immunizing their kids.
Others believe shots can lead to neurological problems, such as
autism. Some fear serious medical problems like cancer, which can lead
to death. In some areas, people still lack access to treatment and
some avoid their shots for religious and other personal reasons.

Overall, only one percent of American children are not immunized. But
in three states: Michigan, Washington and Wisconsin, that rate rises
above two percent.

Dawn Richardson has others thinking about the issue in her role as
president of "Prove" (Parents Requesting Open Vaccine Education.)

"I think that parents need to really think about medical advice that's
one-size-fits-all, whether it's for a vaccine or something else, they
need to look at their individual child," she says.

Each state has its own immunization requirements for children entering
public schools. Exceptions are easier to obtain in some states than in
others. In Washington, California and Colorado, for instance, parents
can get exceptions by simply signing a form provided by local
schools.

Barbara Loe Fisher, co-founder and president of the National Vaccine
Information Center, says parents need to be careful and do plenty of
research about their family medical history before getting their
children vaccinated.

Outside of vaccine companies and doctors - who all make money from
manufacturing and administering shots - few members of society
champion the cause of vaccines. Part of the issue is that vaccines
have entered a new era.

Fear Of Neurological Problems

During the mid-1900s, as they slowly annihilated polio, smallpox,
diphtheria and a host of other fatal diseases, vaccines were seen as
lifesavers. Compared with such scourges, the occasional problems that
arose from vaccine impurities or manufacturing defects looked small.

But today, children are routinely vaccinated against diseases that are
considered either trivial or unusual, such as chicken pox, meningitis
or pneumococcal disease. The benefits of such vaccines seem smaller,
so society looks at potential risks with a fresh and wary eye.

Another problem is the pseudo-scientification of medical myths. For
example, in the 1990s, some scientists became concerned about the
level of mercury in vaccines. For decades, vaccine makers used a
preservative called thimerosal, which contains a small amount of
mercury. Since mercury is a known neurotoxin, which in large doses can
cause brain damage, the U.S. and other Western governments told
manufacturers to remove it from their products.

Vaccine critics blame this mercury content for the apparent rise in
cases of autism in the United States and England. A recent study
published in the Lancet medical journal showed the blood mercury
levels of infants who received vaccines that contained thimerosal were
well below all the safety levels set by government agencies.

The Lancet study looked at 61 infants, most having blood-mercury
levels below 2 nanograms per milliliter after vaccination; the highest
safety limit, set by the Environmental Protection Agency, is 5.8
nanograms. Some critics counter that the study was too small and that
delays in testing some of the infants may have missed the peak blood-
mercury levels. In an effort to address some of these issues, another
study of 200 children is going on in Argentina.

The connection between vaccination and autistic behavior, first
reported in "DPT: A Shot in the Dark" (Coulter & Fisher, 1985) 15
years ago is now being discussed in medical literature. This enhanced
public awareness has been fueled by persistent reports by parents in
the U.S., Canada and Europe that their children were healthy, bright
and happy until they received one or more vaccines and then descended
into the isolated, painful world of autism, marked by chronic immune
and neurological dysfunction, including repetitive and uncontrollable
behavior.

Conservative estimates are that about 500,000 Americans are autistic
but that number is growing daily, with new evidence that perhaps as
many as 1 in 150 children are suffering from autism spectrum disorder
that can include a range of neurological, behavior and immune system
dysfunction.

The incidence of autism, like that of learning disabilities, attention
deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), asthma, diabetes, arthritis,
chronic fatigue syndrome, inflammatory bowel disease and other
autoimmune and neurological disorders, has risen dramatically in the
U.S. and other technologically advanced countries, while high
vaccination rates have caused the incidence of childhood infectious
diseases to fall just as dramatically in these countries. Instead of
epidemics of infectious disease, there are now epidemics of chronic
disease.

The American Academy of Pediatrics says that immunizing a child is far
more beneficial than not immunizing. Recent studies show that infants
immunized with vaccines preserved with mercury-based thimerosal had
blood mercury levels below current safety limits and that children's
bodies get rid of that form of mercury much more quickly than was
believed.

For information about vaccine compensation, call:
The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program Health Resources and
Services Administration
Parklawn Building, Room 8-05
600 Fishers Lane
Rockville, MD 20857
Telephone: (800) 338-2382 (24-hour recording)

Persons wishing to file a claim for vaccine injury should call or
write to: U.S. Court of Federal Claims
717 Madison Place, NW
Washington, D.C. 20005
Telephone: (202) 219-9657.

© MMII, CBS Worldwide Inc. All Rights Reserved.
CBS) For the 11,000 babies born in the U.S. every day, pediatricians
recommend a series of 20 vaccinations protecting against 11 diseases
before each child reaches 18 months.

Vaccination rates have climbed to record levels in recent years,
indicating that many parents take these recommendations to heart.
However, some families still remain fearful.

At six and a half years old, Alexa Richardson has never been
immunized. Neither has her two-year-old sister, Erica. Their mother
vetoed vaccinations after reading her own baby book.

"I remember looking down and seeing 106 fever, 10 days, unresponsive
after one of the immunizations," says Dawn Richardson. She had bad
reactions to her measles, mumps and rubella vaccines, which were
separate at the time. She also got sick after receiving smallpox
vaccine. Her husband, Scott, has a family history of auto-immune
reactions.

Medical reasons kept the Richardsons from immunizing their kids.
Others believe shots can lead to neurological problems, such as
autism. Some fear serious medical problems like cancer, which can lead
to death. In some areas, people still lack access to treatment and
some avoid their shots for religious and other personal reasons.

Overall, only one percent of American children are not immunized. But
in three states: Michigan, Washington and Wisconsin, that rate rises
above two percent.

Dawn Richardson has others thinking about the issue in her role as
president of "Prove" (Parents Requesting Open Vaccine Education.)

"I think that parents need to really think about medical advice that's
one-size-fits-all, whether it's for a vaccine or something else, they
need to look at their individual child," she says.

Each state has its own immunization requirements for children entering
public schools. Exceptions are easier to obtain in some states than in
others. In Washington, California and Colorado, for instance, parents
can get exceptions by simply signing a form provided by local
schools.

Barbara Loe Fisher, co-founder and president of the National Vaccine
Information Center, says parents need to be careful and do plenty of
research about their family medical history before getting their
children vaccinated.

Outside of vaccine companies and doctors - who all make money from
manufacturing and administering shots - few members of society
champion the cause of vaccines. Part of the issue is that vaccines
have entered a new era.

Fear Of Neurological Problems

During the mid-1900s, as they slowly annihilated polio, smallpox,
diphtheria and a host of other fatal diseases, vaccines were seen as
lifesavers. Compared with such scourges, the occasional problems that
arose from vaccine impurities or manufacturing defects looked small.

But today, children are routinely vaccinated against diseases that are
considered either trivial or unusual, such as chicken pox, meningitis
or pneumococcal disease. The benefits of such vaccines seem smaller,
so society looks at potential risks with a fresh and wary eye.

Another problem is the pseudo-scientification of medical myths. For
example, in the 1990s, some scientists became concerned about the
level of mercury in vaccines. For decades, vaccine makers used a
preservative called thimerosal, which contains a small amount of
mercury. Since mercury is a known neurotoxin, which in large doses can
cause brain damage, the U.S. and other Western governments told
manufacturers to remove it from their products.

Vaccine critics blame this mercury content for the apparent rise in
cases of autism in the United States and England. A recent study
published in the Lancet medical journal showed the blood mercury
levels of infants who received vaccines that contained thimerosal were
well below all the safety levels set by government agencies.

The Lancet study looked at 61 infants, most having blood-mercury
levels below 2 nanograms per milliliter after vaccination; the highest
safety limit, set by the Environmental Protection Agency, is 5.8
nanograms. Some critics counter that the study was too small and that
delays in testing some of the infants may have missed the peak blood-
mercury levels. In an effort to address some of these issues, another
study of 200 children is going on in Argentina.

The connection between vaccination and autistic behavior, first
reported in "DPT: A Shot in the Dark" (Coulter & Fisher, 1985) 15
years ago is now being discussed in medical literature. This enhanced
public awareness has been fueled by persistent reports by parents in
the U.S., Canada and Europe that their children were healthy, bright
and happy until they received one or more vaccines and then descended
into the isolated, painful world of autism, marked by chronic immune
and neurological dysfunction, including repetitive and uncontrollable
behavior.

Conservative estimates are that about 500,000 Americans are autistic
but that number is growing daily, with new evidence that perhaps as
many as 1 in 150 children are suffering from autism spectrum disorder
that can include a range of neurological, behavior and immune system
dysfunction.

The incidence of autism, like that of learning disabilities, attention
deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), asthma, diabetes, arthritis,
chronic fatigue syndrome, inflammatory bowel disease and other
autoimmune and neurological disorders, has risen dramatically in the
U.S. and other technologically advanced countries, while high
vaccination rates have caused the incidence of childhood infectious
diseases to fall just as dramatically in these countries. Instead of
epidemics of infectious disease, there are now epidemics of chronic
disease.

The American Academy of Pediatrics says that immunizing a child is far
more beneficial than not immunizing. Recent studies show that infants
immunized with vaccines preserved with mercury-based thimerosal had
blood mercury levels below current safety limits and that children's
bodies get rid of that form of mercury much more quickly than was
believed.

For information about vaccine compensation, call:
The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program Health Resources and
Services Administration
Parklawn Building, Room 8-05
600 Fishers Lane
Rockville, MD 20857
Telephone: (800) 338-2382 (24-hour recording)

Persons wishing to file a claim for vaccine injury should call or
write to: U.S. Court of Federal Claims
717 Madison Place, NW
Washington, D.C. 20005
Telephone: (202) 219-9657.

© MMII, CBS Worldwide Inc. All Rights Reserved.

http://www.909shot.com/Loe_Fisher/NYTimes.htm

http://www.909shot.com/Loe_Fisher/blftestimony_iom_safety.htm

http://www.909shot.com/History/Newsletters/%203770Reaction.pdf

http://www.909shot.com/About.htm

NVIC provides assistance to parents whose children have suffered
vaccine reactions; promotes research to evaluate vaccine safety and
effectiveness as well as to identify factors which place individuals
at high risk for suffering vaccine reactions; and serves as a consumer
"watchdog" by monitoring vaccine research, development, policymaking
and legislation. NVIC supports the right of citizens to make educated,
independent vaccination decisions for themselves and their children.

The oldest and largest national organization advocating that vaccine
safety reforms be instituted in the mass vaccination system and that
Americans be free to make informed vaccination choices, NVIC's co-
founders worked with federal legislators to help create and pass the
National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986. This law set up a
vaccine injury compensation program and included legal requirements
for vaccine providers to: (1) provide benefit and risk information to
parents before children are vaccinated; (2) keep written records of
vaccine manufacturer names and lot numbers for each vaccination given;
and (3) report adverse events following vaccination to the government.
The law also preserved the right for vaccine injured persons to bring
a lawsuit in the court system if federal compensation is denied or is
not sufficient. By 2004, the U.S. Court of Claims had awarded over
1,200 vaccine victims $1.5 billion dollars for their catastrophic
vaccine injuries.

NVIC's co-founders have represented consumers on vaccine advisory
committees such as the Advisory Commission on Childhood Vaccines, the
National Vaccine Advisory Committee and the Institute of Medicine's
Vaccine Safety Forum. In 1989, the organization held an International
Scientific Workshop attended by eminent epidemiologists,
neuroimmunologists, molecular biologists, bacteriologists and
neuropathologists to evaluate the neurological complications of
pertussis and the whole cell pertussis vaccine. In 1996, NVIC realized
a major goal when, after 14 years of public advocacy work, the FDA
finally licensed a purified pertussis vaccine (DTaP vaccine) for
American babies.

In 1997, NVIC held the First International Public Conference on
Vaccination, which brought together more than 500 doctors, scientists,
health officials, lawyers, ethicists, journalists and parents from 34
states and five countries to the US Capitol to present new scientific
data about vaccines and diseases and discuss the biological mechanism
of vaccine-induced injury, death and chronic illness. NVIC held major
medical conferences in 2000 and 2002.

NVIC is working for wider recognition that well-designed, independent,
on-going scientific investigation must be conducted to define the
biological mechanism of vaccine injury and death and evaluate the
chronic, long-term effects of multiple vaccination on individuals and
the public health. NVIC is calling for government funding of
independent researchers to investigate the reported links between
vaccines and neurological and autoimmune disorders, including learning
disabilities, attention deficit disorder, autism, asthma, diabetes,
otitis media, multiple sclerosis, lupus, Crohn's disease (intestinal
disorders), chronic fatigue syndrome, rheumatoid arthritis,
Alzheimer's, cancer, AIDS, Gulf War syndrome, personality disorders
and other autoimmune and brain dysfunction which has been associated
with vaccination.

NVIC also supports the institution of an independent public oversight
mechanism to monitor vaccine research, development, regulation,
policymaking and promotion by federal and state public health agencies
and as well as independent, non-governmental monitoring of adverse
events associated with vaccination.

NVIC continues to represent the vaccine safety concerns of families
with vaccine-injured children as well as those who want to protect
their children from vaccine injury. Most importantly, NVIC defends the
human right of all people to make informed, voluntary decisions about
medical interventions which can cause injury or death, including
vaccination.

Since 1982, NVIC has provided information about diseases and vaccines
to hundreds of thousands of parents, health care providers and other
individuals who have contacted our organization. We hope the
information provided to you in this web site will help you make an
informed vaccination decision for yourself or for someone you care
about.






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