From: Jason on

> > Perhaps I would be in agreement with the enemies of vaccines if I had NOT
> > had an aunt that had Polio. As a young child, I saw what a victim of poli=
> o
> > had to deal with on a daily basis. I think that it is wonderful that
> > people in this generation that have had a vaccine for polio do NOT have t=
> o
> > be concerned with getting such a terrible disease. I doubt that any of th=
> e
> > enemies of vaccines have known a family member or close friend that have
> > had polio--otherwise, they would NOT be an enemy of vaccines. On the othe=
> r
> > hand, vaccines that have not been tested in the way that they should have
> > been tested should not be given to anyone. I have read that they vaccine
> > for swine flu has NOT been tested in the way that vaccines should be
> > tested and it is for that reason that none of the members of my family
> > will be getting the vaccine for swine flu.
>
> That is incorrect. The process is identical as to ones used in years
> past.

I conducted a quick google search for "Swine flu vaccine not properly
tested" and found the following:

Swine flu vaccine has not been tested.
Aug 7, 2009 ... Neither will the possible side effects be known on
pregnant women or young
children as Dr Marie Paul Kieny, director of vaccine research at ...
http://windfarms.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/swine-flu-vaccine-has-not-been-tested/
- 43k - Cached - Similar pages

Half of GPs refuse swine flu vaccine over testing fears | Mail Online
Aug 25, 2009 ... Up to half of family doctors do not want to be vaccinated
against swine flu
because they believe the jab has not been tested enough.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208716/Half-GPs-refuse-swine-flu-vaccine-testing-fears.html
- Similar pages

Swine flu vaccine will not be fully tested before use - mirror.co.uk
Jul 23, 2009 ... Desperate health chiefs are to start handing out the new
swine flu vaccine
before full human trials are carried out.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/07/23/guinea-piggies-115875-21541092/
- 106k - Cached - Similar pages

To vaccinate or not? Some wary on H1N1 choice - CNN.com
Oct 9, 2009 ... "Be knowledgeable, though, that the H1N1 swine flu vaccine
is ... the swine flu
vaccine because she believes it has not been tested enough. ...
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/10/09/h1n1.vaccine.skepticism/ - 81k -
Cached - Similar pages

Health Officials Admit Fast Tracked H1N1 Vaccines Will Not Be Tested....
They scared people to death over no deaths or even confirmed swine flu cases,
then gave them a vaccine which was not tested for safety (they tested another
....
http://www.infowars.com/health-officials-admit-fast-tracked-h1n1-vaccines-will-not-be-tested-for-safety/
- 140k - Cached - Similar pages

Swine flu vaccines are safe and time-tested, experts assert ...
Oct 19, 2009 ... Swine flu vaccines are safe and time-tested, experts
assert ... Hardly, and
especially not compared with the dangers of the H1N1 flu virus. ... authorities
and others familiar with how swine flu vaccine is being made, ...
http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-flu-vaccine-making-19-oct19,0,3212579.story
- 141k - Cached - Similar pages

First Swine Flu Shots Will Not Be Safety Tested - AGE OF AUTISM
By Ginger Taylor On Friday, the National Biodefense Science Board met in
emergency session to work on issues surrounding the H1N1 flu pandemic.
http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/07/first-swine-flu-shots-will-not-be-safety-tested.html
- 74k - Cached - Similar pages


From: Mark Probert on
On Jan 18, 10:57 pm, Ja...(a)nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > Perhaps I would be in agreement with the enemies of vaccines if I had NOT
> > > had an aunt that had Polio. As a young child, I saw what a victim of poli=
> > o
> > > had to deal with on a daily basis. I think that it is wonderful that
> > > people in this generation that have had a vaccine for polio do NOT have t=
> > o
> > > be concerned with getting such a terrible disease. I doubt that any of th=
> > e
> > > enemies of vaccines have known a family member or close friend that have
> > > had polio--otherwise, they would NOT be an enemy of vaccines. On the othe=
> > r
> > > hand, vaccines that have not been tested in the way that they should have
> > > been tested should not be given to anyone. I have read that they vaccine
> > > for swine flu has NOT been tested in the way that vaccines should be
> > > tested and it is for that reason that none of the members of my family
> > > will be getting the vaccine for swine flu.
>
> > That is incorrect. The process is identical as to ones used in years
> > past.
>
> I conducted a quick google search for "Swine flu vaccine not properly
> tested" and found the following:
>
Snip
>
Snipo
>

Snip
>
Snip
>
Snip
>
> Swine flu vaccines are safe and time-tested, experts assert ...
> Oct 19, 2009 ... Swine flu vaccines are safe and time-tested, experts
> assert ... Hardly, and
> especially not compared with the dangers of the H1N1 flu virus. ... authorities
> and others familiar with how swine flu vaccine is being made, ...http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-flu-vaccine-making-19-oct19,...
> - 141k - Cached - Similar pages
Snip

I removed everything that is from either a known anti-vaccination
source, e.g. Age of Autism Cesspoop, a newspaper that had consistently
demonstrated utter credulousness when propagating the Wakefield
fiasco, etc.

What I left supports my comment.

Now, please come back with something that is factual.



From: Jan Drew on
On Jan 17, 10:01�pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 17, 8:37�pm, Ja...(a)nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <4480ba32-d76d-4d94-bb07-3c1e29a74...(a)34g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, Jan
>
> > Drew <jdrew63...(a)aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Jan 16, 6:14=EF=BF=BDpm, Peter Parry <pe...(a)wpp.ltd.uk> wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:11:47 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original
>
> > > > <p...(a)mytrashmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >The Truth About Vaccine as a Life-Saving "Medicine"
>
> > > > If it is really the truth why do you continue to post patently false
> > > > statements to support it?
>
> > > > >The timeline of vaccine introduction and impact can be seen
> > > > >graphically athttp://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html. Infectious
> > > > >disease mortality declined dramatically prior to availability of most
> > > > >vaccine (See "Public Health at the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole and
> > > > >R. Bonita, pg 43) such that only 3.5%, AT MOST, of the decline in
> > > > >disease-related mortality from 1900 to 1975 could be attributed to
> > > > >measures introduced for the control of these diseases. =EF=BF=BD
>
> > > > What they wrote was -
>
> > > > "Various explanations have been advanced for the decline in mortality
> > > > rates. which gathered speed in nineteenth century Europe. =EF=BF=BDMcKeow=
> > > n
> > > > proposed that steady improvements in nutrition beginning in the
> > > > eighteenth century, together with improvements in water supply and
> > > > sanitation, an increase in the general standard of living following
> > > > [he Industrial Revolution, and a reduction in birth rates propelled
> > > > the health transition. The development of effective medical measures
> > > > was too late to make a major contribution to the mortality decline in
> > > > Europe and other western countries. For example, it has been estimated
> > > > that, at most, only 3.5% of the total decline in mortality in the
> > > > United States of America between 1900 and 1973 could be ascribed to
> > > > medical measures introduced for the major infectious diseases. On the
> > > > other hand, targeted public health Interventions including
> > > > vaccination, personal hygiene campaigns, and improved child health
> > > > care services, were of major importance....
>
> > > > The more recent decline in mortality in poorer countries has some
> > > > parallels with nineteenth-century Europe. For example, the dramatic
> > > > gains in China in the last four decades were associated with major
> > > > improvements in food supply {despite occasional devastating famines)
> > > > as well as public health campaigns directed at the control of
> > > > infectious diseases; literacy, especially for females, has also been
> > > > of major importance.
>
> > > > The most recent declines in mortality however, have been influenced
> > > > greatly by public health and medical care advances. =EF=BF=BDFor example,
> > > > smallpox, a major scourge of humankind for centuries, has been
> > > > eradicated, "
>
> > > > In the late 1800's there were a number of major killers accounting for
> > > > many deaths, particularly in infants. =EF=BF=BDPoor nutrition, squalid
> > > > conditions and in particular poor water were major factors. =EF=BF=BDIn 1=
> > > 831
> > > > 31,000 people in the UK died of Cholera, Typhus regularly killed
> > > > 16,000 per year (double that in hot dry summer years). =EF=BF=BDin 1840 5=
> > > 0,000
> > > > succumbed to measles and whooping cough. =EF=BF=BDNo one doubts that prio=
> > > r to
> > > > the start of the second world war social and public health
> > > > improvements were by far the greatest influence on the well being of
> > > > the population. The work of civil engineers such as Bazalgette had a
> > > > far greater impact than any other measure.
>
> > > > By the end of WW2 however the civil engineering aspects of disease
> > > > mitigation were reaching the end of the road in the west and poor
> > > > housing and nutrition were no longer significant in many western
> > > > countries. =EF=BF=BDIn the UK wartime rationing had led to one of the bes=
> > > t fed
> > > > populations ever but diseases such as Polio, measles, whooping cough
> > > > and mumps remained common and were not going to be reduced
> > > > significantly by social or public health measures. =EF=BF=BDThe major dec=
> > > line
> > > > in mortality in the west caused by social and economic influences upon
> > > > health and disease took place before 1930, after that time measures
> > > > such as vaccination had a far more profound effect.
>
> > > > The very valid point Beaglehole and =EF=BF=BDBonita make of course is tha=
> > > t
> > > > there are still many parts of the world where social and public health
> > > > measures have the potential to improve life often at relatively small
> > > > cost. =EF=BF=BDThey do not, and never have, proposed that medical improve=
> > > ments
> > > > were either insignificant or unnecessary, you should read the whole
> > > > book.
>
> > > > >Whether
> > > > >vaccine was responsible for even 1% of those declines is not known..
>
> > > > Seek and ye shall find, there is ample evidence out there to the
> > > > contrary.
>
> > > > Your figure is meaningless. =EF=BF=BDNo one questions that massive
> > > > improvements in public health were made prior to the 1930's by social
> > > > and public health measures. =EF=BF=BDNo one doubts that in that time the
> > > > effect of public health improvement dwarfed that of medical advances.
> > > > However, beyond that time the picture changes dramatically. =EF=BF=BD
>
> > > > For example in Rabies the death rate without vaccination is as near as
> > > > makes no difference 100%. =EF=BF=BDWith vaccination given pre-exposure an=
> > > d
> > > > immediately after suspected exposure it is nearly zero. =EF=BF=BDThere is=
> > > �no
> > > > other effective treatment.
>
> > > > The number of Hib meningitis cases in children under 5 years in the
> > > > USA was fairly steady at about 20 per 100,000 from 1980 until 1988
> > > > when Hib conjugate vaccine was introduced. =EF=BF=BDBy 1991 it had droppe=
> > > d to
> > > > about 3 cases per 100,000. =EF=BF=BDDuring that time period there was no
> > > > significant =EF=BF=BDalteration in standards of living or social health.
>
> > > > In the Gambia the rate of Hib meningitis in children prior to 1992
> > > > when the first vaccination against it started had been fairly constant
> > > > for decades at about 220 cases per 100,000. =EF=BF=BDBy 1998 it was about=
> > > �5
> > > > per 100,000. =EF=BF=BDIn the same time there were no significant social
> > > > changes.
>
> > > > Polio affected 350,000 children worldwide in 1980, by 2006 that was
> > > > down to 800 because of vaccination. =EF=BF=BDSince then it has increased =
> > > again
> > > > and in 2008 was 1,655 because the mad mullahs of northern Nigeria say
> > > > that Polio vaccination is a plot by the USA to spread Aids and
> > > > infertility and are killing public health officials involved in
> > > > administering it. =EF=BF=BDI wonder if any read Whale to get support for =
> > > their
> > > > views??
>
> > > > >The graphs show that declines in severe illness leading to death prior
> > > > >to use of vaccine was profound. =EF=BF=BDIn one case, those declines occ=
> > > urred
> > > > >without vaccine present at all, further demonstrating the McKinlay
> > > > >finding cited by Beaglehole and Bonita.
>
> > > > Have any of the people misquoting their work ever read that book?
>
> > > > > If the vast majority of
> > > > >declines in infectious disease mortality occurred before most vaccines
> > > > >were available, the trend in declining severity of these illnesses
> > > > >would naturally have continued past introduction of vaccine. =EF=BF=BD
>
> > > > It would? =EF=BF=BDThe control of rabid animals would have meant Rabies b=
> > > ecame
> > > > less severe?
>
> > > > >And that is exactly what happened. =EF=BF=BD
>
> > > > No it didn't
>
> > > Prove it.
>
> > Perhaps I would be in agreement with the enemies of vaccines if I had NOT
> > had an aunt that had Polio. As a young child, I saw what a victim of polio
> > had to deal with on a daily basis. I think that it is wonderful that
> > people in this generation that have had a vaccine for polio do NOT have to
> > be concerned with getting such a terrible disease. I doubt that any of the
> > enemies of vaccines have known a family member or close friend that have
> > had polio--otherwise, they would NOT be an enemy of vaccines. On the other
> > hand, vaccines that have not been tested in the way that they should have
> > been tested should not be given to anyone. I have read that they vaccine
> > for swine flu has NOT been tested in the way that vaccines should be
> > tested and it is for that reason that none of the members of my family
> > will be getting the vaccine for swine flu.
>
> That is incorrect. The process is identical as to ones used in years
> past.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That's a claim. Now. prove it.
From: PeterB - Original on
On Jan 18, 12:45 am, "Peter B" <origin...(a)frag.com> wrote:
> "PeterB - Original" <p...(a)mytrashmail.com> wrote in messagenews:dd3828c3-a6cd-4299-acef-686110223520(a)c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > The Truth About Vaccine as a Life-Saving "Medicine"
>
> By the reasoning you have chosen to follow, without scientific facits I
> might add, we should then ignore everyone in the AIDS community.

We are already ignoring them by ascribing to HIV a disease (AIDS) for
which it is simply another opportunistic infection.

> Let
> them die off, watch the cases disappear and say, "see? We don't need no
> stinking vaccinations"

What you know about vaccine could be fit into a thimble with enough
room left over for a mac truck. You proved that by your inability to
cite a single study proving your bogus claims.

> We should also stop trying to develope vaccinations for cancers that are
> virus driven and let them all die off also.

Do point to any data in the medical literature showing a real decrease
in population-level rates of cancer resulting from use of vaccines.
I'll wait.

> We should also allow you and others to tout your anti-vac propaganda
> only after you have written/signed a document denying any all medical
> care for you and all your family in close contact with you in the event
> they get the flu, virus activated disease, whatever. That way if you
> cause the death of another because of your beliefs then you and yours
> will be subjected to the same thing.

Your belief in "herd immunity" is touching. Let us know when you find
any proof of it.

> There is currently an upsurge in old diseases due to the influx of
> illegal aliens to America, as well as high traffic across borders.
> Simple things like riding public transit systems will subject you to
> diseases all but eradicted from the USA.

You make the false assumption that exposure is equal to infection just
as you assume inoculation is equal to immunity. Our response to
infection is spectral because individual biochemistry, genetics, and
health are variable. Vaccine can not, and does not, predictably
compensate for natural immunity that is less than optimal.

> You can wash your hands and
> take showers frequently but that will not prevent you from getting
> polio, tuberculosis and other such diseases.

Nor will vaccine do so predictably or safely, as tens of thousands
have learned.

> Please enjoy your remaining life.

I will.
From: Jan Drew on
On Jan 17, 10:01�pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 17, 8:37�pm, Ja...(a)nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <4480ba32-d76d-4d94-bb07-3c1e29a74...(a)34g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, Jan
>
> > Drew <jdrew63...(a)aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Jan 16, 6:14=EF=BF=BDpm, Peter Parry <pe...(a)wpp.ltd.uk> wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:11:47 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original
>
> > > > <p...(a)mytrashmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >The Truth About Vaccine as a Life-Saving "Medicine"
>
> > > > If it is really the truth why do you continue to post patently false
> > > > statements to support it?
>
> > > > >The timeline of vaccine introduction and impact can be seen
> > > > >graphically athttp://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html. Infectious
> > > > >disease mortality declined dramatically prior to availability of most
> > > > >vaccine (See "Public Health at the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole and
> > > > >R. Bonita, pg 43) such that only 3.5%, AT MOST, of the decline in
> > > > >disease-related mortality from 1900 to 1975 could be attributed to
> > > > >measures introduced for the control of these diseases. =EF=BF=BD
>
> > > > What they wrote was -
>
> > > > "Various explanations have been advanced for the decline in mortality
> > > > rates. which gathered speed in nineteenth century Europe. =EF=BF=BDMcKeow=
> > > n
> > > > proposed that steady improvements in nutrition beginning in the
> > > > eighteenth century, together with improvements in water supply and
> > > > sanitation, an increase in the general standard of living following
> > > > [he Industrial Revolution, and a reduction in birth rates propelled
> > > > the health transition. The development of effective medical measures
> > > > was too late to make a major contribution to the mortality decline in
> > > > Europe and other western countries. For example, it has been estimated
> > > > that, at most, only 3.5% of the total decline in mortality in the
> > > > United States of America between 1900 and 1973 could be ascribed to
> > > > medical measures introduced for the major infectious diseases. On the
> > > > other hand, targeted public health Interventions including
> > > > vaccination, personal hygiene campaigns, and improved child health
> > > > care services, were of major importance....
>
> > > > The more recent decline in mortality in poorer countries has some
> > > > parallels with nineteenth-century Europe. For example, the dramatic
> > > > gains in China in the last four decades were associated with major
> > > > improvements in food supply {despite occasional devastating famines)
> > > > as well as public health campaigns directed at the control of
> > > > infectious diseases; literacy, especially for females, has also been
> > > > of major importance.
>
> > > > The most recent declines in mortality however, have been influenced
> > > > greatly by public health and medical care advances. =EF=BF=BDFor example,
> > > > smallpox, a major scourge of humankind for centuries, has been
> > > > eradicated, "
>
> > > > In the late 1800's there were a number of major killers accounting for
> > > > many deaths, particularly in infants. =EF=BF=BDPoor nutrition, squalid
> > > > conditions and in particular poor water were major factors. =EF=BF=BDIn 1=
> > > 831
> > > > 31,000 people in the UK died of Cholera, Typhus regularly killed
> > > > 16,000 per year (double that in hot dry summer years). =EF=BF=BDin 1840 5=
> > > 0,000
> > > > succumbed to measles and whooping cough. =EF=BF=BDNo one doubts that prio=
> > > r to
> > > > the start of the second world war social and public health
> > > > improvements were by far the greatest influence on the well being of
> > > > the population. The work of civil engineers such as Bazalgette had a
> > > > far greater impact than any other measure.
>
> > > > By the end of WW2 however the civil engineering aspects of disease
> > > > mitigation were reaching the end of the road in the west and poor
> > > > housing and nutrition were no longer significant in many western
> > > > countries. =EF=BF=BDIn the UK wartime rationing had led to one of the bes=
> > > t fed
> > > > populations ever but diseases such as Polio, measles, whooping cough
> > > > and mumps remained common and were not going to be reduced
> > > > significantly by social or public health measures. =EF=BF=BDThe major dec=
> > > line
> > > > in mortality in the west caused by social and economic influences upon
> > > > health and disease took place before 1930, after that time measures
> > > > such as vaccination had a far more profound effect.
>
> > > > The very valid point Beaglehole and =EF=BF=BDBonita make of course is tha=
> > > t
> > > > there are still many parts of the world where social and public health
> > > > measures have the potential to improve life often at relatively small
> > > > cost. =EF=BF=BDThey do not, and never have, proposed that medical improve=
> > > ments
> > > > were either insignificant or unnecessary, you should read the whole
> > > > book.
>
> > > > >Whether
> > > > >vaccine was responsible for even 1% of those declines is not known..
>
> > > > Seek and ye shall find, there is ample evidence out there to the
> > > > contrary.
>
> > > > Your figure is meaningless. =EF=BF=BDNo one questions that massive
> > > > improvements in public health were made prior to the 1930's by social
> > > > and public health measures. =EF=BF=BDNo one doubts that in that time the
> > > > effect of public health improvement dwarfed that of medical advances.
> > > > However, beyond that time the picture changes dramatically. =EF=BF=BD
>
> > > > For example in Rabies the death rate without vaccination is as near as
> > > > makes no difference 100%. =EF=BF=BDWith vaccination given pre-exposure an=
> > > d
> > > > immediately after suspected exposure it is nearly zero. =EF=BF=BDThere is=
> > > �no
> > > > other effective treatment.
>
> > > > The number of Hib meningitis cases in children under 5 years in the
> > > > USA was fairly steady at about 20 per 100,000 from 1980 until 1988
> > > > when Hib conjugate vaccine was introduced. =EF=BF=BDBy 1991 it had droppe=
> > > d to
> > > > about 3 cases per 100,000. =EF=BF=BDDuring that time period there was no
> > > > significant =EF=BF=BDalteration in standards of living or social health.
>
> > > > In the Gambia the rate of Hib meningitis in children prior to 1992
> > > > when the first vaccination against it started had been fairly constant
> > > > for decades at about 220 cases per 100,000. =EF=BF=BDBy 1998 it was about=
> > > �5
> > > > per 100,000. =EF=BF=BDIn the same time there were no significant social
> > > > changes.
>
> > > > Polio affected 350,000 children worldwide in 1980, by 2006 that was
> > > > down to 800 because of vaccination. =EF=BF=BDSince then it has increased =
> > > again
> > > > and in 2008 was 1,655 because the mad mullahs of northern Nigeria say
> > > > that Polio vaccination is a plot by the USA to spread Aids and
> > > > infertility and are killing public health officials involved in
> > > > administering it. =EF=BF=BDI wonder if any read Whale to get support for =
> > > their
> > > > views??
>
> > > > >The graphs show that declines in severe illness leading to death prior
> > > > >to use of vaccine was profound. =EF=BF=BDIn one case, those declines occ=
> > > urred
> > > > >without vaccine present at all, further demonstrating the McKinlay
> > > > >finding cited by Beaglehole and Bonita.
>
> > > > Have any of the people misquoting their work ever read that book?
>
> > > > > If the vast majority of
> > > > >declines in infectious disease mortality occurred before most vaccines
> > > > >were available, the trend in declining severity of these illnesses
> > > > >would naturally have continued past introduction of vaccine. =EF=BF=BD
>
> > > > It would? =EF=BF=BDThe control of rabid animals would have meant Rabies b=
> > > ecame
> > > > less severe?
>
> > > > >And that is exactly what happened. =EF=BF=BD
>
> > > > No it didn't
>
> > > Prove it.
>
> > Perhaps I would be in agreement with the enemies of vaccines if I had NOT
> > had an aunt that had Polio. As a young child, I saw what a victim of polio
> > had to deal with on a daily basis. I think that it is wonderful that
> > people in this generation that have had a vaccine for polio do NOT have to
> > be concerned with getting such a terrible disease. I doubt that any of the
> > enemies of vaccines have known a family member or close friend that have
> > had polio--otherwise, they would NOT be an enemy of vaccines. On the other
> > hand, vaccines that have not been tested in the way that they should have
> > been tested should not be given to anyone. I have read that they vaccine
> > for swine flu has NOT been tested in the way that vaccines should be
> > tested and it is for that reason that none of the members of my family
> > will be getting the vaccine for swine flu.
>
> That is incorrect. The process is identical as to ones used in years
> past.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Still waiting for you to prove it. The burden of proof is yours.
You made the claim.
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