From: Jan Drew on
On Jan 16, 6:14�pm, Peter Parry <pe...(a)wpp.ltd.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:11:47 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original
>
> <p...(a)mytrashmail.com> wrote:
> >The Truth About Vaccine as a Life-Saving "Medicine"
>
> If it is really the truth why do you continue to post patently false
> statements to support it?
>
> >The timeline of vaccine introduction and impact can be seen
> >graphically athttp://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html. Infectious
> >disease mortality declined dramatically prior to availability of most
> >vaccine (See "Public Health at the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole and
> >R. Bonita, pg 43) such that only 3.5%, AT MOST, of the decline in
> >disease-related mortality from 1900 to 1975 could be attributed to
> >measures introduced for the control of these diseases. �
>
> What they wrote was -
>
> "Various explanations have been advanced for the decline in mortality
> rates. which gathered speed in nineteenth century Europe. �McKeown
> proposed that steady improvements in nutrition beginning in the
> eighteenth century, together with improvements in water supply and
> sanitation, an increase in the general standard of living following
> [he Industrial Revolution, and a reduction in birth rates propelled
> the health transition. The development of effective medical measures
> was too late to make a major contribution to the mortality decline in
> Europe and other western countries. For example, it has been estimated
> that, at most, only 3.5% of the total decline in mortality in the
> United States of America between 1900 and 1973 could be ascribed to
> medical measures introduced for the major infectious diseases. On the
> other hand, targeted public health Interventions including
> vaccination, personal hygiene campaigns, and improved child health
> care services, were of major importance....
>
> The more recent decline in mortality in poorer countries has some
> parallels with nineteenth-century Europe. For example, the dramatic
> gains in China in the last four decades were associated with major
> improvements in food supply {despite occasional devastating famines)
> as well as public health campaigns directed at the control of
> infectious diseases; literacy, especially for females, has also been
> of major importance.
>
> The most recent declines in mortality however, have been influenced
> greatly by public health and medical care advances. �For example,
> smallpox, a major scourge of humankind for centuries, has been
> eradicated, "
>
> In the late 1800's there were a number of major killers accounting for
> many deaths, particularly in infants. �Poor nutrition, squalid
> conditions and in particular poor water were major factors. �In 1831
> 31,000 people in the UK died of Cholera, Typhus regularly killed
> 16,000 per year (double that in hot dry summer years). �in 1840 50,000
> succumbed to measles and whooping cough. �No one doubts that prior to
> the start of the second world war social and public health
> improvements were by far the greatest influence on the well being of
> the population. The work of civil engineers such as Bazalgette had a
> far greater impact than any other measure.
>
> By the end of WW2 however the civil engineering aspects of disease
> mitigation were reaching the end of the road in the west and poor
> housing and nutrition were no longer significant in many western
> countries. �In the UK wartime rationing had led to one of the best fed
> populations ever but diseases such as Polio, measles, whooping cough
> and mumps remained common and were not going to be reduced
> significantly by social or public health measures. �The major decline
> in mortality in the west caused by social and economic influences upon
> health and disease took place before 1930, after that time measures
> such as vaccination had a far more profound effect.
>
> The very valid point Beaglehole and �Bonita make of course is that
> there are still many parts of the world where social and public health
> measures have the potential to improve life often at relatively small
> cost. �They do not, and never have, proposed that medical improvements
> were either insignificant or unnecessary, you should read the whole
> book.
>
> >Whether
> >vaccine was responsible for even 1% of those declines is not known.
>
> Seek and ye shall find, there is ample evidence out there to the
> contrary.
>
> Your figure is meaningless. �No one questions that massive
> improvements in public health were made prior to the 1930's by social
> and public health measures. �No one doubts that in that time the
> effect of public health improvement dwarfed that of medical advances.
> However, beyond that time the picture changes dramatically. �
>
> For example in Rabies the death rate without vaccination is as near as
> makes no difference 100%. �With vaccination given pre-exposure and
> immediately after suspected exposure it is nearly zero. �There is no
> other effective treatment.
>
> The number of Hib meningitis cases in children under 5 years in the
> USA was fairly steady at about 20 per 100,000 from 1980 until 1988
> when Hib conjugate vaccine was introduced. �By 1991 it had dropped to
> about 3 cases per 100,000. �During that time period there was no
> significant �alteration in standards of living or social health.
>
> In the Gambia the rate of Hib meningitis in children prior to 1992
> when the first vaccination against it started had been fairly constant
> for decades at about 220 cases per 100,000. �By 1998 it was about 5
> per 100,000. �In the same time there were no significant social
> changes.
>
> Polio affected 350,000 children worldwide in 1980, by 2006 that was
> down to 800 because of vaccination. �Since then it has increased again
> and in 2008 was 1,655 because the mad mullahs of northern Nigeria say
> that Polio vaccination is a plot by the USA to spread Aids and
> infertility and are killing public health officials involved in
> administering it. �I wonder if any read Whale to get support for their
> views??
>
> >The graphs show that declines in severe illness leading to death prior
> >to use of vaccine was profound. �In one case, those declines occurred
> >without vaccine present at all, further demonstrating the McKinlay
> >finding cited by Beaglehole and Bonita.
>
> Have any of the people misquoting their work ever read that book?
>
> > If the vast majority of
> >declines in infectious disease mortality occurred before most vaccines
> >were available, the trend in declining severity of these illnesses
> >would naturally have continued past introduction of vaccine. �
>
> It would? �The control of rabid animals would have meant Rabies became
> less severe?
>
> >And that is exactly what happened. �
>
> No it didn't

Prove it.
From: Jason on
In article
<4480ba32-d76d-4d94-bb07-3c1e29a74d15(a)34g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, Jan
Drew <jdrew63929(a)aol.com> wrote:

> On Jan 16, 6:14=EF=BF=BDpm, Peter Parry <pe...(a)wpp.ltd.uk> wrote:
> > On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:11:47 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original
> >
> > <p...(a)mytrashmail.com> wrote:
> > >The Truth About Vaccine as a Life-Saving "Medicine"
> >
> > If it is really the truth why do you continue to post patently false
> > statements to support it?
> >
> > >The timeline of vaccine introduction and impact can be seen
> > >graphically athttp://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html. Infectious
> > >disease mortality declined dramatically prior to availability of most
> > >vaccine (See "Public Health at the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole and
> > >R. Bonita, pg 43) such that only 3.5%, AT MOST, of the decline in
> > >disease-related mortality from 1900 to 1975 could be attributed to
> > >measures introduced for the control of these diseases. =EF=BF=BD
> >
> > What they wrote was -
> >
> > "Various explanations have been advanced for the decline in mortality
> > rates. which gathered speed in nineteenth century Europe. =EF=BF=BDMcKeow=
> n
> > proposed that steady improvements in nutrition beginning in the
> > eighteenth century, together with improvements in water supply and
> > sanitation, an increase in the general standard of living following
> > [he Industrial Revolution, and a reduction in birth rates propelled
> > the health transition. The development of effective medical measures
> > was too late to make a major contribution to the mortality decline in
> > Europe and other western countries. For example, it has been estimated
> > that, at most, only 3.5% of the total decline in mortality in the
> > United States of America between 1900 and 1973 could be ascribed to
> > medical measures introduced for the major infectious diseases. On the
> > other hand, targeted public health Interventions including
> > vaccination, personal hygiene campaigns, and improved child health
> > care services, were of major importance....
> >
> > The more recent decline in mortality in poorer countries has some
> > parallels with nineteenth-century Europe. For example, the dramatic
> > gains in China in the last four decades were associated with major
> > improvements in food supply {despite occasional devastating famines)
> > as well as public health campaigns directed at the control of
> > infectious diseases; literacy, especially for females, has also been
> > of major importance.
> >
> > The most recent declines in mortality however, have been influenced
> > greatly by public health and medical care advances. =EF=BF=BDFor example,
> > smallpox, a major scourge of humankind for centuries, has been
> > eradicated, "
> >
> > In the late 1800's there were a number of major killers accounting for
> > many deaths, particularly in infants. =EF=BF=BDPoor nutrition, squalid
> > conditions and in particular poor water were major factors. =EF=BF=BDIn 1=
> 831
> > 31,000 people in the UK died of Cholera, Typhus regularly killed
> > 16,000 per year (double that in hot dry summer years). =EF=BF=BDin 1840 5=
> 0,000
> > succumbed to measles and whooping cough. =EF=BF=BDNo one doubts that prio=
> r to
> > the start of the second world war social and public health
> > improvements were by far the greatest influence on the well being of
> > the population. The work of civil engineers such as Bazalgette had a
> > far greater impact than any other measure.
> >
> > By the end of WW2 however the civil engineering aspects of disease
> > mitigation were reaching the end of the road in the west and poor
> > housing and nutrition were no longer significant in many western
> > countries. =EF=BF=BDIn the UK wartime rationing had led to one of the bes=
> t fed
> > populations ever but diseases such as Polio, measles, whooping cough
> > and mumps remained common and were not going to be reduced
> > significantly by social or public health measures. =EF=BF=BDThe major dec=
> line
> > in mortality in the west caused by social and economic influences upon
> > health and disease took place before 1930, after that time measures
> > such as vaccination had a far more profound effect.
> >
> > The very valid point Beaglehole and =EF=BF=BDBonita make of course is tha=
> t
> > there are still many parts of the world where social and public health
> > measures have the potential to improve life often at relatively small
> > cost. =EF=BF=BDThey do not, and never have, proposed that medical improve=
> ments
> > were either insignificant or unnecessary, you should read the whole
> > book.
> >
> > >Whether
> > >vaccine was responsible for even 1% of those declines is not known.
> >
> > Seek and ye shall find, there is ample evidence out there to the
> > contrary.
> >
> > Your figure is meaningless. =EF=BF=BDNo one questions that massive
> > improvements in public health were made prior to the 1930's by social
> > and public health measures. =EF=BF=BDNo one doubts that in that time the
> > effect of public health improvement dwarfed that of medical advances.
> > However, beyond that time the picture changes dramatically. =EF=BF=BD
> >
> > For example in Rabies the death rate without vaccination is as near as
> > makes no difference 100%. =EF=BF=BDWith vaccination given pre-exposure an=
> d
> > immediately after suspected exposure it is nearly zero. =EF=BF=BDThere is=
> no
> > other effective treatment.
> >
> > The number of Hib meningitis cases in children under 5 years in the
> > USA was fairly steady at about 20 per 100,000 from 1980 until 1988
> > when Hib conjugate vaccine was introduced. =EF=BF=BDBy 1991 it had droppe=
> d to
> > about 3 cases per 100,000. =EF=BF=BDDuring that time period there was no
> > significant =EF=BF=BDalteration in standards of living or social health.
> >
> > In the Gambia the rate of Hib meningitis in children prior to 1992
> > when the first vaccination against it started had been fairly constant
> > for decades at about 220 cases per 100,000. =EF=BF=BDBy 1998 it was about=
> 5
> > per 100,000. =EF=BF=BDIn the same time there were no significant social
> > changes.
> >
> > Polio affected 350,000 children worldwide in 1980, by 2006 that was
> > down to 800 because of vaccination. =EF=BF=BDSince then it has increased =
> again
> > and in 2008 was 1,655 because the mad mullahs of northern Nigeria say
> > that Polio vaccination is a plot by the USA to spread Aids and
> > infertility and are killing public health officials involved in
> > administering it. =EF=BF=BDI wonder if any read Whale to get support for =
> their
> > views??
> >
> > >The graphs show that declines in severe illness leading to death prior
> > >to use of vaccine was profound. =EF=BF=BDIn one case, those declines occ=
> urred
> > >without vaccine present at all, further demonstrating the McKinlay
> > >finding cited by Beaglehole and Bonita.
> >
> > Have any of the people misquoting their work ever read that book?
> >
> > > If the vast majority of
> > >declines in infectious disease mortality occurred before most vaccines
> > >were available, the trend in declining severity of these illnesses
> > >would naturally have continued past introduction of vaccine. =EF=BF=BD
> >
> > It would? =EF=BF=BDThe control of rabid animals would have meant Rabies b=
> ecame
> > less severe?
> >
> > >And that is exactly what happened. =EF=BF=BD
> >
> > No it didn't
>
> Prove it.

Perhaps I would be in agreement with the enemies of vaccines if I had NOT
had an aunt that had Polio. As a young child, I saw what a victim of polio
had to deal with on a daily basis. I think that it is wonderful that
people in this generation that have had a vaccine for polio do NOT have to
be concerned with getting such a terrible disease. I doubt that any of the
enemies of vaccines have known a family member or close friend that have
had polio--otherwise, they would NOT be an enemy of vaccines. On the other
hand, vaccines that have not been tested in the way that they should have
been tested should not be given to anyone. I have read that they vaccine
for swine flu has NOT been tested in the way that vaccines should be
tested and it is for that reason that none of the members of my family
will be getting the vaccine for swine flu.
jason


From: Mark Probert on
On Jan 17, 8:37 pm, Ja...(a)nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article
> <4480ba32-d76d-4d94-bb07-3c1e29a74...(a)34g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, Jan
>
>
>
>
>
> Drew <jdrew63...(a)aol.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 16, 6:14=EF=BF=BDpm, Peter Parry <pe...(a)wpp.ltd.uk> wrote:
> > > On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:11:47 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original
>
> > > <p...(a)mytrashmail.com> wrote:
> > > >The Truth About Vaccine as a Life-Saving "Medicine"
>
> > > If it is really the truth why do you continue to post patently false
> > > statements to support it?
>
> > > >The timeline of vaccine introduction and impact can be seen
> > > >graphically athttp://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html. Infectious
> > > >disease mortality declined dramatically prior to availability of most
> > > >vaccine (See "Public Health at the Crossroads," by R. Beaglehole and
> > > >R. Bonita, pg 43) such that only 3.5%, AT MOST, of the decline in
> > > >disease-related mortality from 1900 to 1975 could be attributed to
> > > >measures introduced for the control of these diseases. =EF=BF=BD
>
> > > What they wrote was -
>
> > > "Various explanations have been advanced for the decline in mortality
> > > rates. which gathered speed in nineteenth century Europe. =EF=BF=BDMcKeow=
> > n
> > > proposed that steady improvements in nutrition beginning in the
> > > eighteenth century, together with improvements in water supply and
> > > sanitation, an increase in the general standard of living following
> > > [he Industrial Revolution, and a reduction in birth rates propelled
> > > the health transition. The development of effective medical measures
> > > was too late to make a major contribution to the mortality decline in
> > > Europe and other western countries. For example, it has been estimated
> > > that, at most, only 3.5% of the total decline in mortality in the
> > > United States of America between 1900 and 1973 could be ascribed to
> > > medical measures introduced for the major infectious diseases. On the
> > > other hand, targeted public health Interventions including
> > > vaccination, personal hygiene campaigns, and improved child health
> > > care services, were of major importance....
>
> > > The more recent decline in mortality in poorer countries has some
> > > parallels with nineteenth-century Europe. For example, the dramatic
> > > gains in China in the last four decades were associated with major
> > > improvements in food supply {despite occasional devastating famines)
> > > as well as public health campaigns directed at the control of
> > > infectious diseases; literacy, especially for females, has also been
> > > of major importance.
>
> > > The most recent declines in mortality however, have been influenced
> > > greatly by public health and medical care advances. =EF=BF=BDFor example,
> > > smallpox, a major scourge of humankind for centuries, has been
> > > eradicated, "
>
> > > In the late 1800's there were a number of major killers accounting for
> > > many deaths, particularly in infants. =EF=BF=BDPoor nutrition, squalid
> > > conditions and in particular poor water were major factors. =EF=BF=BDIn 1=
> > 831
> > > 31,000 people in the UK died of Cholera, Typhus regularly killed
> > > 16,000 per year (double that in hot dry summer years). =EF=BF=BDin 1840 5=
> > 0,000
> > > succumbed to measles and whooping cough. =EF=BF=BDNo one doubts that prio=
> > r to
> > > the start of the second world war social and public health
> > > improvements were by far the greatest influence on the well being of
> > > the population. The work of civil engineers such as Bazalgette had a
> > > far greater impact than any other measure.
>
> > > By the end of WW2 however the civil engineering aspects of disease
> > > mitigation were reaching the end of the road in the west and poor
> > > housing and nutrition were no longer significant in many western
> > > countries. =EF=BF=BDIn the UK wartime rationing had led to one of the bes=
> > t fed
> > > populations ever but diseases such as Polio, measles, whooping cough
> > > and mumps remained common and were not going to be reduced
> > > significantly by social or public health measures. =EF=BF=BDThe major dec=
> > line
> > > in mortality in the west caused by social and economic influences upon
> > > health and disease took place before 1930, after that time measures
> > > such as vaccination had a far more profound effect.
>
> > > The very valid point Beaglehole and =EF=BF=BDBonita make of course is tha=
> > t
> > > there are still many parts of the world where social and public health
> > > measures have the potential to improve life often at relatively small
> > > cost. =EF=BF=BDThey do not, and never have, proposed that medical improve=
> > ments
> > > were either insignificant or unnecessary, you should read the whole
> > > book.
>
> > > >Whether
> > > >vaccine was responsible for even 1% of those declines is not known.
>
> > > Seek and ye shall find, there is ample evidence out there to the
> > > contrary.
>
> > > Your figure is meaningless. =EF=BF=BDNo one questions that massive
> > > improvements in public health were made prior to the 1930's by social
> > > and public health measures. =EF=BF=BDNo one doubts that in that time the
> > > effect of public health improvement dwarfed that of medical advances.
> > > However, beyond that time the picture changes dramatically. =EF=BF=BD
>
> > > For example in Rabies the death rate without vaccination is as near as
> > > makes no difference 100%. =EF=BF=BDWith vaccination given pre-exposure an=
> > d
> > > immediately after suspected exposure it is nearly zero. =EF=BF=BDThere is=
> >  no
> > > other effective treatment.
>
> > > The number of Hib meningitis cases in children under 5 years in the
> > > USA was fairly steady at about 20 per 100,000 from 1980 until 1988
> > > when Hib conjugate vaccine was introduced. =EF=BF=BDBy 1991 it had droppe=
> > d to
> > > about 3 cases per 100,000. =EF=BF=BDDuring that time period there was no
> > > significant =EF=BF=BDalteration in standards of living or social health.
>
> > > In the Gambia the rate of Hib meningitis in children prior to 1992
> > > when the first vaccination against it started had been fairly constant
> > > for decades at about 220 cases per 100,000. =EF=BF=BDBy 1998 it was about=
> >  5
> > > per 100,000. =EF=BF=BDIn the same time there were no significant social
> > > changes.
>
> > > Polio affected 350,000 children worldwide in 1980, by 2006 that was
> > > down to 800 because of vaccination. =EF=BF=BDSince then it has increased =
> > again
> > > and in 2008 was 1,655 because the mad mullahs of northern Nigeria say
> > > that Polio vaccination is a plot by the USA to spread Aids and
> > > infertility and are killing public health officials involved in
> > > administering it. =EF=BF=BDI wonder if any read Whale to get support for =
> > their
> > > views??
>
> > > >The graphs show that declines in severe illness leading to death prior
> > > >to use of vaccine was profound. =EF=BF=BDIn one case, those declines occ=
> > urred
> > > >without vaccine present at all, further demonstrating the McKinlay
> > > >finding cited by Beaglehole and Bonita.
>
> > > Have any of the people misquoting their work ever read that book?
>
> > > > If the vast majority of
> > > >declines in infectious disease mortality occurred before most vaccines
> > > >were available, the trend in declining severity of these illnesses
> > > >would naturally have continued past introduction of vaccine. =EF=BF=BD
>
> > > It would? =EF=BF=BDThe control of rabid animals would have meant Rabies b=
> > ecame
> > > less severe?
>
> > > >And that is exactly what happened. =EF=BF=BD
>
> > > No it didn't
>
> > Prove it.
>
> Perhaps I would be in agreement with the enemies of vaccines if I had NOT
> had an aunt that had Polio. As a young child, I saw what a victim of polio
> had to deal with on a daily basis. I think that it is wonderful that
> people in this generation that have had a vaccine for polio do NOT have to
> be concerned with getting such a terrible disease. I doubt that any of the
> enemies of vaccines have known a family member or close friend that have
> had polio--otherwise, they would NOT be an enemy of vaccines. On the other
> hand, vaccines that have not been tested in the way that they should have
> been tested should not be given to anyone. I have read that they vaccine
> for swine flu has NOT been tested in the way that vaccines should be
> tested and it is for that reason that none of the members of my family
> will be getting the vaccine for swine flu.

That is incorrect. The process is identical as to ones used in years
past.

From: Peter B on

"PeterB - Original" <pkm(a)mytrashmail.com> wrote in message
news:dd3828c3-a6cd-4299-acef-686110223520(a)c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> The Truth About Vaccine as a Life-Saving "Medicine"

By the reasoning you have chosen to follow, without scientific facits I
might add, we should then ignore everyone in the AIDS community. Let
them die off, watch the cases disappear and say, "see? We don't need no
stinking vaccinations"

We should also stop trying to develope vaccinations for cancers that are
virus driven and let them all die off also.

We should also allow you and others to tout your anti-vac propaganda
only after you have written/signed a document denying any all medical
care for you and all your family in close contact with you in the event
they get the flu, virus activated disease, whatever. That way if you
cause the death of another because of your beliefs then you and yours
will be subjected to the same thing.

There is currently an upsurge in old diseases due to the influx of
illegal aliens to America, as well as high traffic across borders.
Simple things like riding public transit systems will subject you to
diseases all but eradicted from the USA. You can wash your hands and
take showers frequently but that will not prevent you from getting
polio, tuberculosis and other such diseases. Please enjoy your remaining
life.



From: Peter Parry on
On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:51:31 -0800 (PST), Jan Drew
<jdrew63929(a)aol.com> wrote:

>On Jan 16, 6:14?pm, Peter Parry <pe...(a)wpp.ltd.uk> wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:11:47 -0800 (PST), PeterB - Original

>> > If the vast majority of
>> >declines in infectious disease mortality occurred before most vaccines
>> >were available, the trend in declining severity of these illnesses
>> >would naturally have continued past introduction of vaccine. ?
>>
>> It would? ?The control of rabid animals would have meant Rabies became
>> less severe?
>>
>> >And that is exactly what happened. ?
>>
>> No it didn't
>
>Prove it.

In Finland the public health aspects of standard of living, nutrition
and measles rates had no major changes between 1960 and 1975.
Approximately 15,000 cases of measles occurred annually. Between 1975
and 1982 MMR vaccination became widespread. Between 1997 and 1998 no
cases of measles were found in Finland. Between 2001 and 2007 2 cases
were reported. (I don't have data for 1999 and 2000).

In 1981 there were 66,000 cases of Polio reported worldwide, In 1998
about 3,000. In the same period there was no significant change in
many countries standard of living.

Between 1991 and 1995 approximately 80,000 cases of chickenpox
occurred every year in the USA, In 1995 a vaccine was licensed and
between 2003 and 2007 approximately 15,000 cases were reported. There
was no significant change in living conditions during that time.

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