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From: Dutch on 30 Jun 2008 15:07
Derek wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:31:19 GMT, Dutch <no(a)email.com> wrote:
>> Derek wrote:
>>
>>> And, while apes hold legal rights against humans, those
>>> against the proposition of extending them further must
>>> show the morally relevant difference between them and
>>> the apes that now hold them.
>> Since the new law is presumably based on the strong similarity between
>> great apes and humans,
>
> The morally relevant "strong similarity between apes
> and humans" is their ability to suffer at our hands, not
> their physical appearance.

Their "ability to suffer at our hands" does not set apes apart from any
other animal, every animal can suffer, therefore the law cannot have
been based on that criterion or it would have been immediately applied
to all animals.

>> the onus remains on animal rights activists to
>> show relevant similarities between those animals and humans if the law
>> is to be extended further.
>
> No. Now that the species barrier is broken, the speciesist
> who rejects the proposition of animal rights on that basis,
> like you, for example, have lost the argument.

Not necessarily, the criterion for rights could be redefined as humans
and other species with similar cognitive abilities or high levels of
sentience.

> The truth is,
> what this new legislation proves is that you never had a
> legitimate argument to begin with.

Whether or not there is a legitimate case for attributing rights to
humans and not to other animals, this attempt to enact legislation to
protect great apes should be seen as nothing more or less than an
attempt to protect great apes. That alone makes it a worthwhile
exercise. In itself it does not and cannot "prove" anything.

> "Some critics questioned why Spain should afford legal
> protection from death or torture to great apes but not
> bulls. But Mr Pozas said that the vote would set a
> precedent, establishing legal rights for animals that could
> be extended to other species. �We are seeking to break
> the species barrier � we are just the point of the spear,�
> he said."
> http://tinyurl.com/5pac62
>
> As we can see, this new law breaks the species barrier
> you and your ilk have set up to continue abusing animals,
> and it sets a precedent so that legal rights can be extended
> to other animals as well as apes.

As I said, in order to make that interpretation you must demonstrate
that this new law is based on something other than an attempt to protect
great apes based on their high level of sentience.

>> It's also questionable if this law actually
>> does what it purports to do, since apes can still be legally held in zoos.
>
> The laws are new, and though it's still legal to keep apes
> in zoos across the country for now, lawmakers behind the
> project are pressing for state-built sanctuaries as an ethical
> alternative for the remaining apes kept in zoos.

Sanctuaries, or large enclosures which replicate the conditions animals
experience when in the wild are already replacing old style zoos in many
places.
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