Some real scientific information on raw vegan diets
in [Vegetarian]
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From: archaea on 12 Aug 2008 17:16 long segments of irrelevant quibbles snipped. Feces are directly or indirectly the source for some of them. South india where traditional farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used have high levels of vi= b12 deficiency. Those who were not farmers else where consume animal products. "So in India, "traditional farming methods" depletes B12.. Creating a need for replenishing B12 in food." That in logic is known as a tautology. Cow manure is the primary fertilizer and is rich in the bacteria which produce vit b12, not to mention that human feces is often used and there is some amount there also. So a bacteria poor soil is not the problem. The problem is that aside from some milk they do not otherwise tap into the cow to manure to soil to cow cycle where the bacteria is abundant in all parts. > "There was no shortage of available B12 on plant based diets while direct > lineage was adapting for 63 million yrs. There are no B12 deficiencies > known among wild great apes in habitat. There is no B12 issue except for > the irrelevant, off topic modern cultural/financial "restrictions" you ar= e > trying to carve out while ignoring adaptation and health in general." > > And all animals find it either in the soil or in feces or by consuming > animal products or producing it in their own large gut. They ignore > financual considerations has they have for millions of years. Bacteria > produce vit b12, not plants. "B12 is also naturally found in/on plants. Drinking water from a stream in a forest may also provide B12. The fact is there are no wild primates deficient in B12 so it really isn't an issue anyway. The B12 deficiency is the result of modern "farming methods" as you admitted with your India example." Some of the animals eat insects and small animals but in any case they all tap into the cycle. For those who consume plants only in addition to tapping into the cycle they produce it in their own large gut. Some animals eat feces so that produced is then put into the small gut where it can be absorbed. Any soil or feces attached to plants or minor amounts taken up in water in plants is incidental to the cycle. Plants do not produce it bacteria do.
From: pearl on 12 Aug 2008 18:50 <archaea(a)scfas.com> wrote in message news:g7stas$sq5$1(a)aioe.org... > > Consider just one. Japan decided not to add "flesh" > > to the diet which one assumes means that of large domesticated animals or > > what is commonly called "red meat". Of course at the many dinners at > > which this might have been discussed a ton of seafood was consumed. > > "'From 676 to 737 A.D., under the Japanese emperor Tenmu, the eating of > all meat, including fish, was outlawed in Japan. From 737 A.D. until the > late 19th century the eating of all meat other than seafood was not > permitted. But even then, fish was generally only eaten by most people on > special occasions. Dogen, the founder of the Soto Zen school of Buddhism, > the main sect of Zen Buddhism, in the 12th century, instituted the > requirements of a vegan diet for all his students, and that practice is > still followed by observant Zen practitioners. Dr. Mitsuru Kakimoto, > (Professor at Osaka Shin-Ai College, Osaka, Japan) ..' > http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/Authors/Quotes/ARandVegnQuotes.htm" > > Making most of the above irrelevant to kellogg's remarks. 'When Emperor Tenmu established Buddhism as the nation's official religion back in 676 AD, he issued a nikushoku kinshirei banning the consumption of meat and fish. Since meat was never a part of the Japanese diet and only coastal residents had regular access to fish, it was a pretty token decree; vegetables were and remained the staple food. Six centuries later, Zen monk Dogen returned from a trip to China with a set of precepts that beefed up Tenmu's (long forgotten) original ruling to create shojin ryori, a vegetarian diet based on key Buddhist themes of compassion and self denial. ...' http://metropolis.co.jp/tokyo/437/dining.asp "The human race in general has never really adopted flesh as a staple food," explains Dr. Kellogg. "The Anglo-Saxons and a few savage tribes are about the only flesh-eating people. The people of other nations use meat only as a luxury or an emergency diet. According to Mori, the Japanese peasant of the interior is almost an exclusive vegetarian. He eats fish once or twice a month and meat once or twice a year." Dr. Kellogg writes that in 1899, the Emperor of Japan appointed a commission to determine whether it was necessary to add meat to the nation's diet to improve the people's strength and stature. The commission concluded that as far as meat was concerned, "the Japanese had always managed to do without it, and that their powers of endurance and their athletic prowess exceeded that of any of the Caucasian races. Japan's diet stands on a foundation of rice." According to Dr. Kellogg, "the rice diet of the Japanese is supplemented by the free use of peanuts, soy beans, and greens, which...constitute a wholly sufficient bill of fare. Throughout the Island Empire, rice is largely used, together with buckwheat, barley, wheat, and millet. Turnips and radishes, yams and sweet potatos are frequently used, also cucumbers, pumpkins and squashes. The soy bean is held in high esteem and used largely in the form of miso, a puree prepared from the bean and fermented; also to-fu, a sort of cheese; and cho-yu, which is prepared by mixing the pulverized beans with wheat flour, salt, and water and fermenting from one and a half to five years. .....' http://www.all-creatures.org/murti/tsnhod-14.html
From: pearl on 12 Aug 2008 19:51 <archaea(a)scfas.com> wrote in message news:g7suik$2gg$1(a)aioe.org... > South india > where traditional farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used have > high levels of vi= b12 deficiency. Unsupported claims. If you're standing by your "high levels of b12 deficiency" (you've yet to provide some evidence, and repeatedly refused to address the issue of widespread under-nutrition anyway) now provide proof that the following doesn't apply to south India: 'Green revolution in India has witnessed a jump in agricultural production with the introduction of HYVs of various crops and by following intensive cultivation practices with the use of fertilizers, pesticides and other inputs. The intensive use of inputs has not only polluted the soil, water and the environment causing their slow degradation but also affected the human beings. With the increase in the country's population, compulsion would be not only to mobilize the agricultural production but also to increase further in a sustainable manner. The scientists have realized that the green revolution with high input use has reached a plateau and is now sustained with diminishing return and falling dividend. Therefore, there is a need to study the past trends in inputs usage like fertilizers and pesticides which are the major components in crop production and future challenges and strategies for sustainable agriculture. ... Consumption of chemical fertilizers has increased tremendously in recent years. Nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium are the primary fertilizers nutrients which are widely used in our country. ... The total consumption of chemical fertilizers is in increasing trends from 0.69 lakh (thousand) tonnes in 1950-51 to 173.18 lakh tonnes in 1997-98. ... Continuous use of inorganic fertilizers mainly containing major nutrients NPK in large quantities and neglecting organic and bio-fertilizers paved the way for deterioration of soil health and in turn ill effects on plants, human being and cattle. The adverse effects of using fertilizers are explained below. ... Development of soil acidification and alkalization due to continuous use of acidic (NH4 Cl (NH2 ) SO4 etc.) and basic (NANO3 ) (CAN basic slag etc.) fertilizers causing imbalance in nutrients availability to crops and affecting activities of beneficial micro organisms. ...' http://www.manage.gov.in/managelib/faculty/manohari.htm 'There were indications that trace element deficiencies in Indian soils might be comparatively widespread with intensification of agriculture. ...' http://www.ipipotash.org/udocs/Potassium%20Research%20in%20India%20Past%20and%20Future.pdf
From: pearl on 12 Aug 2008 19:59 "pearl" <tea(a)signguestbook.ie> wrote in message news:g7t80a$rdl$1(a)reader01.news.esat.net... > <archaea(a)scfas.com> wrote in message news:g7suik$2gg$1(a)aioe.org... > > > South india > > where traditional farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used have > > high levels of vi= b12 deficiency. > > Unsupported claims. If you're standing by your "high levels of b12 > deficiency" (you've yet to provide some evidence, and repeatedly > refused to address the issue of widespread under-nutrition anyway) > now provide proof that the following doesn't apply to south India: > > 'Green revolution in India has witnessed a jump in agricultural production > with the introduction of HYVs of various crops and by following intensive > cultivation practices with the use of fertilizers, pesticides and other inputs. > The intensive use of inputs has not only polluted the soil, water and the > environment causing their slow degradation but also affected the human > beings. With the increase in the country's population, compulsion would > be not only to mobilize the agricultural production but also to increase > further in a sustainable manner. The scientists have realized that the green > revolution with high input use has reached a plateau and is now sustained > with diminishing return and falling dividend. Therefore, there is a need to > study the past trends in inputs usage like fertilizers and pesticides which > are the major components in crop production and future challenges and > strategies for sustainable agriculture. > .. > Consumption of chemical fertilizers has increased tremendously in recent > years. Nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium are the primary fertilizers > nutrients which are widely used in our country. > .. > The total consumption of chemical fertilizers is in increasing trends from > 0.69 lakh (thousand) tonnes in 1950-51 to 173.18 lakh tonnes in 1997-98. "lakh" = 100,000. > .. > Continuous use of inorganic fertilizers mainly containing major nutrients > NPK in large quantities and neglecting organic and bio-fertilizers paved > the way for deterioration of soil health and in turn ill effects on plants, > human being and cattle. > > The adverse effects of using fertilizers are explained below. > .. > Development of soil acidification and alkalization due to continuous use > of acidic (NH4 Cl (NH2 ) SO4 etc.) and basic (NANO3 ) (CAN basic > slag etc.) fertilizers causing imbalance in nutrients availability to crops > and affecting activities of beneficial micro organisms. > ..' > http://www.manage.gov.in/managelib/faculty/manohari.htm > > 'There were indications that trace element deficiencies in Indian soils > might be comparatively widespread with intensification of agriculture. > ..' > http://www.ipipotash.org/udocs/Potassium%20Research%20in%20India%20Past%20and%20Future.pdf
From: archaea on 12 Aug 2008 21:32
> South india > where traditional farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used have > high levels of vi= b12 deficiency. "Unsupported claims. If you're standing by your "high levels of b12 deficiency" (you've yet to provide some evidence, and repeatedly refused to address the issue of widespread under-nutrition anyway) now provide proof that the following doesn't apply to south India:" "More than 60percent of the women had low levels of vitamin B12" snip "Indian mothers have been shown to be deficient in vitamin B12. This vitamin is required in very small amounts, about 2-4 micrograms per day. Non-vegetarian foods and dairy products are rich sources of this vitamin. Most Indians are vegetarian for religious reasons or because of socio-economic reasons." Under-nutrition usually relates to level of caloric intake, while mal-nutrition relates to not having the proper things in the diet. Both could affect vit b12. The presumption that eating more of a diet that has mal-nutrition seems dubious. The green revolution aided the under-nutrition and india became self sufficient in grain production. But having more of a diet with little vitt b12 does not help. Milk is the largest source of vit b12 but only if not boiled or fermented. As for the green revolution in your last point, I nor anyone can prove a negative. Farmers are very practical people. it is difficult to consider they would not use a free manure source to reduce howmuch fertilizer they would have to buy. But let us say I'm 100 percent wrong in the india example. What difference in the basic topic would it make? You seem to be going for the quibble value alone again. Plants are not a source of vit b12, bacteria are and there was no golden past era of farming that changes that. It looks like you are more interested in ego pointsthen really an ernest look at the topic. I really have no interest to play in that sandbox. |