Some real scientific information on raw vegan diets
in [Vegetarian]
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From: pearl on 12 Aug 2008 12:16 <archaea(a)scfas.com> wrote in message news:g7s3vl$nsj$1(a)aioe.org... "crisology" <crisology(a)aol.com> wrote in message news:71972a95-ab83-4905-bccc-54c2462d9fc0(a)t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > "100,000 yrs of meat supplemented diet/63,000,000 yrs of herbivorous/ > frugivorous adaptation = .1587% of primate evolution. There, that's not so > long to supplement a diet w/meat until the weather changes again." > > In that smaller latter period of human evolution all parts of the globe > were occupied in all climates. Meat usage has been suggested as a primary > reason humans can easily occupy any place on earth, weather > notwithstanding. A fruit only diet would find a great part of the globe > off limits to humans. "Flesh foods are not the best nourishment for human beings and were not the food of our primitive ancestors," observes Dr. Kellogg. "There is nothing necessary or desirable for human nutrition to be found in meats or flesh foods which is not found in and derived from vegetable products." Although writing in 1923, Dr. Kellogg's words confirm a recent statement by the American Dietetic Association, that, "most of mankind for most of human history has lived on vegetarian or near vegetarian diets." "The human race in general has never really adopted flesh as a staple food," explains Dr. Kellogg. "The Anglo-Saxons and a few savage tribes are about the only flesh-eating people. The people of other nations use meat only as a luxury or an emergency diet. According to Mori, the Japanese peasant of the interior is almost an exclusive vegetarian. He eats fish once or twice a month and meat once or twice a year." Dr. Kellogg writes that in 1899, the Emperor of Japan appointed a commission to determine whether it was necessary to add meat to the nation's diet to improve the people's strength and stature. The commission concluded that as far as meat was concerned, "the Japanese had always managed to do without it, and that their powers of endurance and their athletic prowess exceeded that of any of the Caucasian races. Japan's diet stands on a foundation of rice." According to Dr. Kellogg, "the rice diet of the Japanese is supplemented by the free use of peanuts, soy beans, and greens, which...constitute a wholly sufficient bill of fare. Throughout the Island Empire, rice is largely used, together with buckwheat, barley, wheat, and millet. Turnips and radishes, yams and sweet potatos are frequently used, also cucumbers, pumpkins and squashes. The soy bean is held in high esteem and used largely in the form of miso, a puree prepared from the bean and fermented; also to-fu, a sort of cheese; and cho-yu, which is prepared by mixing the pulverized beans with wheat flour, salt, and water and fermenting from one and a half to five years. "The Chinese peasant lives on essentially the same diet, as do also the Siamese, the Koreans, and most other Oriental peoples. Three-fourths of the world's population eat so little meat that it cannot be regarded as anything more than an incidental factor in their bill of fare. The countless millions of China," writes Dr. Kellogg, "are for the most part flesh- abstainers. In fact, at least two-thirds of the inhabitants of the world make so little use of flesh that it can hardly be considered an essential part of their dietary...The ancient vegetarian races of Mexico and Peru had attained to a high degree of civilization when discovered by Cortez, and were certainly far more gentle and amiable in character than were their flesh-eating conquerors, whose treachery and cold-blooded atrocities so nearly resulted in the complete extinction of a noble race." Dr. Kellogg reports that the South American bark-gatherers live "almost wholly upon bananas and other equally simple vegetable food... Certain tribes of South American Indians who subsist wholly upon a non-flesh dietary, are remarkable for vigor and endurance...the natives of the great plateau of the Andes subsist almost wholly upon corn and potatos...the old Peruvians...were practically vegetarians." Dr. Kellogg quotes Charles Darwin as having described the laborers in the mines of Chile living "exclusively on vegetable food, including many seeds of leguminous plants." Concerning Central Africa, Dr. Kellogg admits, "It is true that practically all the natives eat meat on occasion, but...the chief sustenance of the naive is obtained from the products of the earth, which are most abundant in this fertile region. Maize, yuma, manioc, coconuts, palm cabbage, bananas, and a great number of fruits and nuts afford ample variety and sufficient nourishment without flesh foods." Dr. Kellogg cites a Mr. Sarvis of the Boston Transcript, who wrote: "The Bantu race, who inhabit the great part of Central Africa, are almost entirely vegetarian... Generally, their food consists largely of a kind of millet, which is almost tasteless... Bananas and sweet potatos also form a very important part of the diet of the African races of the central parts ....The natives also eat vegetables and salads of many kinds. In a few districts cattle are kept for the milk and butter, but the natives do not kill the animals for food...The Kavirondos wear no clothing whatever, and they are absolute vegetarians, the banana forming the base of their food." The Ladrone Islands were discovered by the Spaniards around 1620. There were no animals on the islands except birds, which the natives did not eat. The natives had never seen fire, and they lived entirely on plant foods-fruits and roots in their natural state. They were found to be vigorous, active, and of good longevity. Dr. Kellogg gives an account of the "Silesians, Roumanians, and many Oriental people," all of whom he says "are almost exclusively vegetarians, and enjoy a degree of vigor, vitality, and longevity not found among flesh-eating nations." In his 1583 text, Anatomy of Abuses, Stubbes wrote that previous generations "fed upon graine, corne, roots, pulse, hearbes, weedes, and such other baggage; and yet lived longer than we, were healthfuller than we, of better complexion than we, and much stronger than we in every respect." A century later, Macauley noted that, "meat was so dear in price that hundreds of thousands of families scarcely knew the taste of it," while half the population of England, "ate it not at all or not more often than once a week." Writing in the 1840s, Sylvester Graham observed: "The peasantry of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Turkey, Greece, Italy, Switzerland, France, Spain, England, Scotland, Ireland, a considerable portion of Russia and other parts of Europe subsist mainly on non-flesh foods. The peasantry of modern Greece...subsist on coarse brown bread and fruits. The peasantry in many parts of Russia live on very coarse bread, with garlic and other vegetables; and like the same class in Greece, Italy, etc., they are obliged to be extremely frugal even in this kind of food. Yet they are (for the most part) healthy, vigorous, and active. Many of the inhabitants of Germany live mainly on rye and barley, in the form of coarse bread. "The potato is the principle food of the Irish peasantry, and few portions of the human family are more healthy, athletic, and active...That portion of the peasantry of England and Scotland who subsist on their barley and oatmeal bread, porridge, potatos, and other vegetables, with temperate, cleanly habits (and surroundings) are able to endure more fatigue and exposure than any other class of people in the same countries. Three-fourths of the whole human family, in all periods of time...have subsisted on non-flesh foods; and when their supplies have been abundant and their habits in other respects correct, they have been well nourished." Dr. Kellogg also found a vegetarian lifestyle to be the norm in much of Europe: "An official report shows that the diet of the Swiss peasant includes little or no meat. 'In the Schwyz canton, the people have long lived on plant food, without flesh. They are a fine set of independent mountaineers, and from this canton the freedom of the Swiss was born.' The peasants of northern Italy eat meat twice a year. They are remarkably robust and hearty. "The hardy Scotch have never been great meat eaters. In the remote districts kailbrose, shredded greens and oatmeal over which hot water is poured, is eaten with or without milk...According to Douglas, writing in 1782, the diet of the Scotch of the East Coast was then oatmeal and milk with vegetables. He says: 'Flesh is never seen in the houses of the common farmers, except at a baptism, a wedding, Christmas, or Shrovetide.'" ....' http://www.all-creatures.org/murti/tsnhod-14.html
From: archaea on 12 Aug 2008 14:47 > "100,000 yrs of meat supplemented diet/63,000,000 yrs of herbivorous/ > frugivorous adaptation = .1587% of primate evolution. There, that's not so > long to supplement a diet w/meat until the weather changes again." > > In that smaller latter period of human evolution all parts of the globe > were occupied in all climates. Meat usage has been suggested as a primary > reason humans can easily occupy any place on earth, weather > notwithstanding. A fruit only diet would find a great part of the globe > off limits to humans. ""Flesh foods are not the best nourishment for human beings and were not the food of our primitive ancestors," observes Dr. Kellogg. "There is nothing necessary or desirable for human nutrition to be found in meats or flesh foods which is not found in and derived from vegetable products."" Smile, I found dear dr. kellogg's remarks amusing. More so because they remind me of another food cultist writing in about the same period dr. weston price. What is amusing is that both looked at many of the same parts of the world and came to the exact oppisite conclusion about the merits of the diet there. Kellogg, of breakfast cereal fame, and price whos mantra was eating animal flesh especially fat is critical to health are in fact both wrong. Both are the radical ends of the dietary range of opinion that selectively sees what they want to see. Dr. kellogg got most of his dietary remarks muddled about the parts of the world he mentions. Consider just one. Japan decided not to add "flesh" to the diet which one assumes means that of large domesticated animals or what is commonly called "red meat". Of course at the many dinners at which this might have been discussed a ton of seafood was consumed. Also he mentions several places with little or no "flesh". What he fails to mention that makes all clear is that the people mentioned would love to eat "flesh" but were barely surviving on diets consisting of rice or other grains. In the case of price, he would remark in places he visited about the contrast between people there with the traditional diets and those who had adopted a more western diet with more grain and sugar. He found the traditional contained sources of animal fat. He attributed many of the same attributes of health as did kellogg to the fat. If someone would like to see price's food cult disciples today:: http://www.westonaprice.org
From: crisology on 12 Aug 2008 15:12 On Aug 12, 10:06 am, arch...(a)scfas.com wrote: > > > The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans > tap > > > into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they > can > > > make given various restrictions. > > > "Like when humans travel to the frigid poles of the earth or food > > irradiation "restrictions?" > > Fascinating..." > > > I'm not sure I follow your question. My comment was in followup to a > > previous point that humans because of cultural choices or because of > > poverty might have a largely plant based diet. > > "Your cryptic "various restrictions" of culture & finance have nothing to > do with adaptation to eat a plant based diet for health reasons. If some > people are financially limited (another subject) they may not choose to > purchase meat but other poor people kill and ingest rodents/ > mammals/eggs," etc, regardless of financial situation." > > Who is saying otherwise? Then it is irrelevant whether people can afford to eat meat or not. And your cryptic question about "various restrictions" of finance & culture facilitates no discussion about nutritional reasons for a natural plant diet. > This is known as a strawman argument,ie. slay an > inderectly related strawman and declare the real topic also refuted. "The real topic" was you switching the topic to modern "various restrictions" (unrelated to adaptation) so the enthememe was based on a false premise since finances have no relevance to adaptation or optimal diet. > Poverty prevents a large fraction of the globe from eating meat not at all > or as much as they wish "wishes and finances" today are not reflections of adaptation but of customs so this is off topic. > which would otherwise be their choice. Otherwise it is not necessarily "their choice" to consume meat as some people (who eat for natural health reasons) do not eat meat. > Often they > do have access directly or indirectly to animal products, including those > whose first choice would be to eat plants alone but get the animal > products nonetheless. > > > In which case they would > > have to make choices about supplimenting vit b12 accordingly from the > drug > > store or eating soil or feces or directly or indirectly from animal > > products. > > "Just buy a pill or food that has been replenished with B12. This is > easily/routinely accomplished without financial limitations, consuming > feces or cultural pressure. There is no shortage of available B12 on a > plant based diet today outside the city limits of cultures that have not > abandoned their ecological niche. " > > Replinished means added to foods not having them in nature. No. replenish means to return. Not just adding. Context clues about the fact B12 is destroyed through processing would have made that obvious. re·plen·ish (r-plnsh) v. re·plen·ished, 1. To fill or make complete again; add a new stock or supply to: replenish the larder.. v.intr. To become full again http://www.thefreedictionary.com/replenished So there is nothing unnatural or unhealthy in terms of diet by replenishing (returning) B12 by supplementing foods that were depleted of B12 through processing. Afford is not > a reality for most of the world's population. Which is why I gave money to charity. Financial problems and overpopulation are not the topic here though. Feces are directly or > indirectly the source for some of them. South india where traditional > farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used have high levels of vit > b12 deficiency. Those who were not farmers else where consume animal > products. So in India, "traditional farming methods" depletes B12.. Creating a need for replenishing B12 in food. > "There was no shortage of available B12 on plant based diets while direct > lineage was adapting for 63 million yrs. There are no B12 deficiencies > known among wild great apes in habitat. There is no B12 issue except for > the irrelevant, off topic modern cultural/financial "restrictions" you are > trying to carve out while ignoring adaptation and health in general." > > And all animals find it either in the soil or in feces or by consuming > animal products or producing it in their own large gut. They ignore > financual considerations has they have for millions of years. Bacteria > produce vit b12, not plants. B12 is also naturally found in/on plants. Drinking water from a stream in a forest may also provide B12. The fact is there are no wild primates deficient in B12 so it really isn't an issue anyway. The B12 deficiency is the result of modern "farming methods" as you admitted with your India example. Chris
From: pearl on 12 Aug 2008 15:52 <archaea(a)scfas.com> wrote in message news:g7slsd$vo2$1(a)aioe.org... > > "100,000 yrs of meat supplemented diet/63,000,000 yrs of herbivorous/ > > frugivorous adaptation = .1587% of primate evolution. There, that's not > > so long to supplement a diet w/meat until the weather changes again." > > > > In that smaller latter period of human evolution all parts of the globe > > were occupied in all climates. Meat usage has been suggested as a > > primary reason humans can easily occupy any place on earth, weather > > notwithstanding. A fruit only diet would find a great part of the globe > > off limits to humans. > > ""Flesh foods are not the best nourishment for human beings and were not > the food of our primitive ancestors," observes Dr. Kellogg. "There is > nothing necessary or desirable for human nutrition to be found in meats or > flesh foods which is not found in and derived from vegetable products."" ... > Dr. kellogg got most of his dietary remarks muddled about the parts of the > world he mentions. Ipse dixit. As per usual. > Consider just one. Japan decided not to add "flesh" > to the diet which one assumes means that of large domesticated animals or > what is commonly called "red meat". Of course at the many dinners at > which this might have been discussed a ton of seafood was consumed. 'From 676 to 737 A.D., under the Japanese emperor Tenmu, the eating of all meat, including fish, was outlawed in Japan. From 737 A.D. until the late 19th century the eating of all meat other than seafood was not permitted. But even then, fish was generally only eaten by most people on special occasions. Dogen, the founder of the Soto Zen school of Buddhism, the main sect of Zen Buddhism, in the 12th century, instituted the requirements of a vegan diet for all his students, and that practice is still followed by observant Zen practitioners. Dr. Mitsuru Kakimoto, (Professor at Osaka Shin-Ai College, Osaka, Japan) ...' http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/Authors/Quotes/ARandVegnQuotes.htm > Also > he mentions several places with little or no "flesh". What he fails to > mention that makes all clear is that the people mentioned would love to > eat "flesh" but were barely surviving on diets consisting of rice or other > grains. What was stopping everyone from hunting/fishing/eating insects, or, as you're forever chanting: "eating anything they could get their hands on"?
From: archaea on 12 Aug 2008 16:54
> Consider just one. Japan decided not to add "flesh" > to the diet which one assumes means that of large domesticated animals or > what is commonly called "red meat". Of course at the many dinners at > which this might have been discussed a ton of seafood was consumed. "'From 676 to 737 A.D., under the Japanese emperor Tenmu, the eating of all meat, including fish, was outlawed in Japan. From 737 A.D. until the late 19th century the eating of all meat other than seafood was not permitted. But even then, fish was generally only eaten by most people on special occasions. Dogen, the founder of the Soto Zen school of Buddhism, the main sect of Zen Buddhism, in the 12th century, instituted the requirements of a vegan diet for all his students, and that practice is still followed by observant Zen practitioners. Dr. Mitsuru Kakimoto, (Professor at Osaka Shin-Ai College, Osaka, Japan) ..' http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/Authors/Quotes/ARandVegnQuotes.htm" Making most of the above irrelevant to kellogg's remarks. The japanese like many asians modified buddhism as they liked. In s.e. asia there are groups who eat meat. The stricture is about taking life not eating meat per sey. Those groups eat meat because there is a class of non-buddhists who do the actual butchering so the buddhists are home free in their eyes. Also like many asians, poverty was the reason animal products are not consumed in greater amounts and then on special events as funds permitted. Those leaders who were considering dietary changes whold have no such limitations and their shintoism has no such religious limitations. > Also > he mentions several places with little or no "flesh". What he fails to > mention that makes all clear is that the people mentioned would love to > eat "flesh" but were barely surviving on diets consisting of rice or other > grains. "What was stopping everyone from hunting/fishing/eating insects, or, as you're forever chanting: "eating anything they could get their hands on"?" The chinese in s. china have a traditional saying. They eat everything with legs but the table and they eat every thing that flies but planes. It is poverty alone that dictates to what degree this can be followed. Insects and rats and snakes and anything else they do get their hands on is eaten. Their meat of choice pork and to a less degree poultry are strictly eaten to the degree funds permit. |