Some real scientific information on raw vegan diets
in [Vegetarian]
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From: archaea on 10 Aug 2008 14:54 > Are we finished with this quibble fest? It is hard to know what your > point is and to what end? The facts of the situation are well known and > unremarkable in most regards and hardly worthy of mention. "The "quibble fest" will end when I stop replying to your endless merry-go-round of re-re-re-stating what you want to think is true in the face of evidence showing that well-known "facts" are false, as you're one of those people who have to have the "last word"!" Such as yourself, smile? Go in peace least you become dizzy.
From: dh on 11 Aug 2008 07:59 On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:54:53 +0200 (CEST), archaea(a)scfas.com wrote: >> Are we finished with this quibble fest? It is hard to know what your >> point is and to what end? The facts of the situation are well known and >> unremarkable in most regards and hardly worthy of mention. > >"The "quibble fest" will end when I stop replying to your endless >merry-go-round of re-re-re-stating what you want to think is true in the >face of evidence showing that well-known "facts" are false, as you're one >of those people who have to have the "last word"!" > >Such as yourself, smile? Go in peace least you become dizzy. "Pear's" "reality" is a dizzy place, taking on characteristics she invents herself and apply when it suits her. For example: She has no problem believing that frogs exist in the millions in rice fields everywhere in the world *except* in Texas. Why does she claim to believe they don't exist in Texas, when she believes they do everywhere else that rice is grown? Because a Texas rice farmer explained that they do, so for some reason she jumped to the conclusion that must be the only place where they do not. Stupid? It certainly appears to be, and it gets even more so. She not only denies their existence (in TX only), but she has also gone on to explain how she thinks these frogs she claims don't exist in TX rice fields are able to survive when the fields are drained, and then harvested. She claims the supposedly non-existent frogs survive the draining and harvest by migrating. How much more screwed up can a person get? (...well, she also believes the Earth is hollow, advanced aliens inhabit the center of it, and that they fly in and out in space craft through holes in the North and South poles...)
From: crisology on 11 Aug 2008 15:37 On Aug 9, 10:22 am, arch...(a)scfas.com wrote: > The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap > into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can > make given various restrictions. Like when humans travel to the frigid poles of the earth or food irradiation "restrictions?" Fascinating... On Aug 9, 8:09 am, "pearl" <t...(a)signguestbook.ie> wrote: > More than 30 genes are involved in vitamin B12 synthesis, and "that's a > lot to carry around if you don't need to make it," Walker said. > ..'http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/b12.html > > Mozafar's study shows that plants can take up B12 from the soil.. > > In addition, humans would naturally be foraging in and at soil-level.. As a comparison of how adaptation works efficiently (not wastefully), $B!H(BHumans have no enzymatic capability to manufacture vitamin C. The cause of this phenomenon is that the last enzyme in the synthesis process, L-gulonolactone oxidase, cannot be made by the listed animals because the gene for this enzyme, Pseudogene $B&7(BGULO, is defective.[24] The mutation has not been lethal because vitamin C is abundant in their food sources$B!I(B http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C $B!H(BFour gene products are necessary to manufacture vitamin C from glucose. The loss of activity of the gene for the last step, Pseudogene $B&7(BGULO (GLO) the terminal enzyme responsible for manufacture of vitamin C, has occurred separately in the history of several species. Loss of GLO activity in the primate order supposedly occurred about 63 million years ago, at about the time it split into the suborders haplorrhini (which lost the enzyme activity) and the more primitive strepsirrhini (which retained it)$B!I(B Humans can live about 60 days without Vitamin C but live up to 1-20 years or more without B12 deficiency symptoms. Eventually humans could potentially die from B12 deficiency too. Humans do synthesize and absorb trace amounts of B12.. Fermentation in frugivorous H. Sapiens- "B vitamins also are synthesized by hindgut bacteria, but the extent to which they are absorbed from the hindgut is unclear. Wrong et al. concluded that there was good evidence that nicotinic acid, riboflavin, pantothenic acid, thiamin, biotin, pyridoxine, folic acid, and vitamin B12 are synthesized by microbes in the human colon, and all but the first three were absorbed to some degree."-Physiol. Rev. 78: 393-427,1998 and can store/recycle it better than Vitamin C.. $B!H(BThe biological halflife for vitamin C is fairly short, about 30 minutes in blood plasma, a fact which high dose advocates say that mainstream researchers have failed to take into account. Researchers at the National Institutes of Health decided upon the current RDA based upon tests conducted 12 hours (24 half lives) after consumption. Mainstream medicine remains skeptical of these claims.$B!I(B http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C Humans require so little B12 $B!H(BThe official recommended daily intakes are 1 $B&L(Bg in Canada and 2 $B&L(Bg in the United States . Again, these figures have large safety margins built in.$B!I(B And some people have proven to require far less. But humans require much more Vitamin C.(2g or more/day) and debate continues about whether humans may benefit from much higher levels. Obviously there is no shortage of the universal bacteria B12 in a natural environment$B!D(B $B!H(BDeficiency diseases have not been identified for any wild primate population (Kerr 1972, Wolf 1972). Known cases of nutritional diseases among primates are laboratory-induced features of captive animals or culturally induced human diseases. Laboratory studies probably cannot establish evidence for the evolutionary basis of dietary needs. BioScience, Volume 28, Pages 761-766, 1978 $B!H(B And there is no pressure to obtain more B12 in natural environments. I found no documented cases of any B12 deficiency for any wild animal. Can you elaborate on the "restrictions" you're seeking in a natural habitat/diet? While swatting flies & brushing off cobwebs on my strawberry guavas in the yard (the morning after a heavy rain), it occurred to me that there is no shortage of B12, air, Vitamin C or protein. A recent diet of supplemented meat <~1 million yrs, didn$B!G(Bt change 63 million yr dependency upon dirty fruit/trace B12 dependency & the lack of reason to adapt any wasteful practices to over clean/cook/process/douse with pesticides the natural food. There is no evidence hominoidea require more B12 after recent meat supplemented diet resulting from climate changes. There is no B12 issue.. While it is interesting to muse over the cycle of the complex universal B12 cycle, It$B!G(Bs all academic. Humans didn$B!G(Bt develop any greater dependency upon B12 just because they supplemented diet w/meat during the ice age. With fruit, Chris > Who said anything about livestock, the few domesticated animals are but a > footnote in all this. > > "Consider that pristine ecosystems are naturally teeming with wildlife - > excreting everywhere, and thus B12-producing bacteria and B12.." > > Indeed, and the point other then restating the animal to feces to soil to > animal cycle? > > > > > That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12 > as > > is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12 > as > > a part of its metabolism. > > 'Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and > "Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis > pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by > microorganisms." > > Not relevant to why plants are not a source of vit b12, just a statement > of what relationship the bacteria which produce it has with plants. > > The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap > into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can > make given various restrictions. Humans must get it from consuming > something, and plants are not among those choices in any viable form in > and of themselves.
From: archaea on 11 Aug 2008 15:54 > The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap > into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can > make given various restrictions. "Like when humans travel to the frigid poles of the earth or food irradiation "restrictions?" Fascinating..." I'm not sure I follow your question. My comment was in followup to a previous point that humans because of cultural choices or because of poverty might have a largely plant based diet. In which case they would have to make choices about supplimenting vit b12 accordingly from the drug store or eating soil or feces or directly or indirectly from animal products.
From: crisology on 12 Aug 2008 05:36
On Aug 11, 3:54 pm, arch...(a)scfas.com wrote: > > The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap > > into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can > > make given various restrictions. > > "Like when humans travel to the frigid poles of the earth or food > irradiation "restrictions?" > Fascinating..." > > I'm not sure I follow your question. My comment was in followup to a > previous point that humans because of cultural choices or because of > poverty might have a largely plant based diet. Your cryptic "various restrictions" of culture & finance have nothing to do with adaptation to eat a plant based diet for health reasons. If some people are financially limited (another subject) they may not choose to purchase meat but other poor people kill and ingest rodents/ mammals/eggs, etc, regardless of financial situation. > In which case they would > have to make choices about supplimenting vit b12 accordingly from the drug > store or eating soil or feces or directly or indirectly from animal > products. Just buy a pill or food that has been replenished with B12. This is easily/routinely accomplished without financial limitations, consuming feces or cultural pressure. There is no shortage of available B12 on a plant based diet today outside the city limits of cultures that have not abandoned their ecological niche. There was no shortage of available B12 on plant based diets while direct lineage was adapting for 63 million yrs. There are no B12 deficiencies known among wild great apes in habitat. There is no B12 issue except for the irrelevant, off topic modern cultural/financial "restrictions" you are trying to carve out while ignoring adaptation and health in general. Chris |