Some real scientific information on raw vegan diets
in [Vegetarian]
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From: archaea on 9 Aug 2008 10:22 > The cycle for vit b12 is bacteria producing it as a waste product in a > foraging animal large gut to feces to soil and then return with feeding. > Because some foraging animals pass quantities of vit b12 as feces from the > large gut, they also eat feces so as to absorb it in the small gut. "But then B12-producing bacteria would be present in the small gut." Maybe, it might have been destroyed in stomach digestion, it is an interesting question but not relevant to the point that foraging animals are a core player in vit b12 cycle. ""Livestock" aren't given feces or gut bacteria to remedy or prevent B12 deficiency - they're routinely given cobalt and/or B12 directly." Who said anything about livestock, the few domesticated animals are but a footnote in all this. "Consider that pristine ecosystems are naturally teeming with wildlife - excreting everywhere, and thus B12-producing bacteria and B12.." Indeed, and the point other then restating the animal to feces to soil to animal cycle? > That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12 as > is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12 as > a part of its metabolism. 'Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and "Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by microorganisms." Not relevant to why plants are not a source of vit b12, just a statement of what relationship the bacteria which produce it has with plants. The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can make given various restrictions. Humans must get it from consuming something, and plants are not among those choices in any viable form in and of themselves.
From: archaea on 9 Aug 2008 10:36 Excuse me, the material posted is irrelevant to my original remarks and in fact supports them. Please read them again: Prehumans had access to animal based vit b12 for some millions of years. No need to speculate about a time when they ate plant foods only. By the time of modern humans, 100 k years ago, humans had been fully engaged in eating anything they could get their hands on for a long long time. To the best of my knowledge this is factual in all respects. Especially the idea that we need have no compelling reason to project into the distant past some plant only diet for the human line, recalling that modern (us) humans by 100 k were in all places fully omnivores by all the evidence we have. The evidence points to them eating anything they could get their hands on as a function of what was available in a given environment and the ratio of plant to animal products varied accordingly.
From: pearl on 9 Aug 2008 11:42 <archaea(a)scfas.com> wrote in message news:g7k97c$q2f$1(a)aioe.org... > > The cycle for vit b12 is bacteria producing it as a waste product in a > > foraging animal large gut to feces to soil and then return with feeding. > > Because some foraging animals pass quantities of vit b12 as feces from > > the large gut, they also eat feces so as to absorb it in the small gut. > > "But then B12-producing bacteria would be present in the small gut." > > Maybe, it might have been destroyed in stomach digestion, How do you suppose the gut is populated with bacteria in the first place? > it is an > interesting question but not relevant to the point that foraging animals > are a core player in vit b12 cycle. You seem to be forgetting that naturally humans are foraging animals. > ""Livestock" aren't given feces or gut bacteria to remedy or prevent B12 > deficiency - they're routinely given cobalt and/or B12 directly." > > Who said anything about livestock, the few domesticated animals are but a > footnote in all this. They're animals, aren't they - your source of B12 and manure. ("few"?) > "Consider that pristine ecosystems are naturally teeming with wildlife - > excreting everywhere, and thus B12-producing bacteria and B12.." > > Indeed, and the point other then restating the animal to feces to soil to > animal cycle? Obviously, that foraging humans also participate in this "cycle". > > That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12 as > > is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12 as > > a part of its metabolism. > > 'Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and > "Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis > pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by > microorganisms." > > Not relevant to why plants are not a source of vit b12, just a statement > of what relationship the bacteria which produce it has with plants. Research has shown that plants can take up B12 from soil. Again? > The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap > into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can > make given various restrictions. Humans must get it from consuming > something, and plants are not among those choices in any viable form in > and of themselves. We can get it from our cobalt-replete organic gardens, or supplements.
From: archaea on 9 Aug 2008 18:11 > > The cycle for vit b12 is bacteria producing it as a waste product in a > > foraging animal large gut to feces to soil and then return with feeding. > > Because some foraging animals pass quantities of vit b12 as feces from > > the large gut, they also eat feces so as to absorb it in the small gut. > > "But then B12-producing bacteria would be present in the small gut." > > Maybe, it might have been destroyed in stomach digestion, "How do you suppose the gut is populated with bacteria in the first place?" By consuming it, but it does not ordinarly continue in the small gut. The large t=gut is the place the bacteria of interest resides. The animals eat their feces not for the bacteria it contains but for the vit b12 that bacteria produced when in their large gut. Because it was excreated it is eaten to be absorbed in the small gut. > it is an > interesting question but not relevant to the point that foraging animals > are a core player in vit b12 cycle. "You seem to be forgetting that naturally humans are foraging animals." Not at all, at least one human group get vit b12 in part from eating their own feces by using it as fertilizer. > ""Livestock" aren't given feces or gut bacteria to remedy or prevent B12 > deficiency - they're routinely given cobalt and/or B12 directly." > > Who said anything about livestock, the few domesticated animals are but a > footnote in all this. "They're animals, aren't they - your source of B12 and manure. ("few"?) " Yup, but not a very interesting quibble is it? > "Consider that pristine ecosystems are naturally teeming with wildlife - > excreting everywhere, and thus B12-producing bacteria and B12.." > > Indeed, and the point other then restating the animal to feces to soil to > animal cycle?" "Obviously, that foraging humans also participate in this "cycle"." Yup, another not so very interesting quibble that I have mentioned previously, where do humans tap into the cycle. > > That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12 as > > is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12 as > > a part of its metabolism. > > 'Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and > "Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis > pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by > microorganisms." > > Not relevant to why plants are not a source of vit b12, just a statement > of what relationship the bacteria which produce it has with plants. "Research has shown that plants can take up B12 from soil. Again? " " Yup, ditto quibble. But it does not do so in a manner that plants are a reliable source anywhere near what is required. > Theonly question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap > into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can > make given various restrictions. Humans must get it from consuming > something, and plants are not among those choices in any viable form in > and of themselves. "We can get it from our cobalt-replete organic gardens, or supplements." Most likely not. As discussed before the south indian example where cow manure as common in all parts of the human environment on a daily basis including as fertilizer abudundant in vit b12 bacteria, they still have low vit b12 problems. As to supplementing, yes. One can get it at the drug store, one can eat soil, one can eat feces, or one can eat directly or indirectly animal products. Sadly, eating plants is not such a viable source regardless of soil as the south indian example shows. Are we finished with this quibble fest? It is hard to know what your point is and to what end? The facts of the situation are well known and unremarkable in most regards and hardly worthy of mention.
From: pearl on 10 Aug 2008 04:36
<archaea(a)scfas.com> wrote in message news:g7l4mj$kns$1(a)aioe.org... > > > The cycle for vit b12 is bacteria producing it as a waste product in a > > > foraging animal large gut to feces to soil and then return with feeding. > > > Because some foraging animals pass quantities of vit b12 as feces from > > > the large gut, they also eat feces so as to absorb it in the small gut. > > > > "But then B12-producing bacteria would be present in the small gut." > > > > Maybe, it might have been destroyed in stomach digestion, > > "How do you suppose the gut is populated with bacteria in the first > place?" > > By consuming it, but it does not ordinarly continue in the small gut. > The large t=gut is the place the bacteria of interest resides. We've all seen the evidence that B12-producing enteric bacteria colonize the small intestine, hari, so stating otherwise is idiotic. > The > animals eat their feces not for the bacteria it contains but for the vit > b12 that bacteria produced when in their large gut. Because it was > excreated it is eaten to be absorbed in the small gut. Which animals eat their own feces? > > it is an > > interesting question but not relevant to the point that foraging animals > > are a core player in vit b12 cycle. > > "You seem to be forgetting that naturally humans are foraging animals." > > Not at all, at least one human group get vit b12 in part from eating their > own feces by using it as fertilizer. Excrement is rapidly broken down and incorporated into soil, so it's incorrect to say that those humans were eating their own feces. It is however probable that the soil was rich in B12-producing bacteria. > > ""Livestock" aren't given feces or gut bacteria to remedy or prevent B12 > > deficiency - they're routinely given cobalt and/or B12 directly." > > > > Who said anything about livestock, the few domesticated animals are but > a > > footnote in all this. > > "They're animals, aren't they - your source of B12 and manure. ("few"?) " > > Yup, but not a very interesting quibble is it? It highlights a reason why B12 deficiency occurs. Hardly a "quibble". > > "Consider that pristine ecosystems are naturally teeming with wildlife - > > excreting everywhere, and thus B12-producing bacteria and B12.." > > > Indeed, and the point other then restating the animal to feces to soil to > > animal cycle? > > "Obviously, that foraging humans also participate in this "cycle"." > > Yup, another not so very interesting quibble that I have mentioned > previously, where do humans tap into the cycle. Where all other foraging animals "tap into the cycle" - eating food. > > > That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12 as > > > is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12 as > > > a part of its metabolism. > > > > 'Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and > > "Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis > > pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by > > microorganisms." > > > > Not relevant to why plants are not a source of vit b12, just a statement > > of what relationship the bacteria which produce it has with plants. > > "Research has shown that plants can take up B12 from soil. Again? " " > > Yup, ditto quibble. But it does not do so in a manner that plants are a > reliable source anywhere near what is required. The reason that plants aren't a reliable source is because of widespread soil cobalt deficiency, ag-chem agribusiness exaceberating the problem. This has been explained, but true to form, hari, you ignore all evidence. > > Theonly question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap > > into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can > > make given various restrictions. Humans must get it from consuming > > something, and plants are not among those choices in any viable form in > > and of themselves. > > "We can get it from our cobalt-replete organic gardens, or supplements." > > Most likely not. You've seen one study of vegans eating organic foods high in cobalt. > As discussed before the south indian example where cow > manure as common in all parts of the human environment on a daily basis > including as fertilizer abudundant in vit b12 bacteria, they still have > low vit b12 problems. Show us research. You never addressed the rampant under-nutrition. > As to supplementing, yes. One can get it at the drug store, one can eat > soil, one can eat feces, or one can eat directly or indirectly animal > products. > > Sadly, eating plants is not such a viable source regardless of soil as the > south indian example shows. The South Indians who consume milk? That's some "example". > Are we finished with this quibble fest? It is hard to know what your > point is and to what end? The facts of the situation are well known and > unremarkable in most regards and hardly worthy of mention. The "quibble fest" will end when I stop replying to your endless merry-go-round of re-re-re-stating what you want to think is true in the face of evidence showing that well-known "facts" are false, as you're one of those people who have to have the "last word"! |