Some real scientific information on raw vegan diets
in [Vegetarian]
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From: archaea on 5 Aug 2008 17:10 > Irrelevant, the question is how does it find its way into any human food > source. "Relevant. 1. On foods (environmental 'contamination'). 2. In foods (see http://www.css.cornell.edu/courses/190/abstr/boshart2.htm ), and 3. Synthesized by enteric bacteria resident in the human small intestine (where Vit. B12 is absorbed). -- Provided there's adequate levels of cobalt in the soil, and, organic farming methods instead of ag-chem." Since cobalt levels can be low and the soil saturated with chem's, it's indeed prudent and recommended we take a B12 supplement. If some soil is by accident still on those parts which come into contact with plants it is a very tiny amount. Normal preparation of washing and it is gone. We do not eat soil. The link shows the real source of the vit b12, manure from animalse. The amount that could be produced in the human gut is far from sufficient because of the level of b12 bacteria there. So if we aren't eating soil and it isn't in plants and only then and if present onlyy as an indirect by product of animals and the human gut doesn't produce enough, what is the major source in the human diet and where does the bacteria live that produces it? read on: Vitamin B-12 is naturally found in meat (especially liver and shellfish), milk and eggs. Animals, in turn, must obtain it directly or indirectly from bacteria, and these bacteria may inhabit a section of the gut which is posterior to the section where B-12 is absorbed. Thus, herbivorous animals must either obtain B-12 from bacteria in their rumens, or (if fermenting plant material in the hindgut) by reingestion of cecotrope f�ces. Eggs are often mentioned as a good B-12 source, but they also contain a factor that blocks absorption.[23] Certain insects such as termites contain B-12 produced by their gut bacteria, in a manner analogous to ruminant animals.[24] An NIH Fact Sheet lists a variety of food sources of vitamin B-12. Plants only supply B-12 to humans when the soil containing B-12-producing microorganisms has not been washed from them. For example, mushrooms are typically high in B-12 [25], but they are often grown in soil containing high amounts of manure and bacteria, and there is a serious question as to whether B-12 may be made by mushrooms themselves [26], and how much of it would be present after careful washing [27]. Vegan humans who eat only carefully washed vegetables must ordinarily take special care to supplement their diets accordingly. According to the U.K. Vegan Society, the only reliable vegan sources of B-12 are foods fortified with B-12 (including some plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals), and B-12 supplements.[28] While lacto-ovo vegetarians usually get enough B-12 through consuming dairy products, vitamin B-12 may be found to be lacking in those practicing vegan diets who do not use multivitamin supplements or eat B-12 fortified foods. Examples of fortified foods often consumed include fortified breakfast cereals, fortified soy-based products, and fortified energy bars. Claimed sources of B-12 that have been shown through direct studies[29] of vegans to be inadequate or unreliable include, laver (a seaweed), barley grass, and human gut bacteria. People on a vegan raw food diet are also susceptible to B-12 deficiency if no supplementation is used^[30].
From: pearl on 5 Aug 2008 19:15 <archaea(a)scfas.com> wrote in message news:g7afke$ig2$1(a)aioe.org... > > Irrelevant, the question is how does it find its way into any human food > > source. > > "Relevant. 1. On foods (environmental 'contamination'). 2. In foods > (see http://www.css.cornell.edu/courses/190/abstr/boshart2.htm ), and > 3. Synthesized by enteric bacteria resident in the human small intestine > (where Vit. B12 is absorbed). -- Provided there's adequate levels of > cobalt in the soil, and, organic farming methods instead of ag-chem." > > > Since cobalt levels can be low and the soil saturated with chem's, > it's indeed prudent and recommended we take a B12 supplement. > > If some soil is by accident still on those parts which come into contact > with plants it is a very tiny amount. Normal preparation of washing and > it is gone. We do not eat soil. Remember that the context is natural diet. No wild species "carefully washes" its food. Bacteria and B12 would be virtually everywhere - in soil, on hands and food - living naturally in healthy natural habitat. > The link shows the real source of the > vit b12, manure from animalse. The same bacteria are abundant in healthy soil. In natural ecosystems animal (wildlife) manure would also contribute to environmental B12. No need for domesticated animals (..supplemented with cobalt/B12). > The amount that could be produced in the > human gut is far from sufficient because of the level of b12 bacteria > there. 'Nature. 1980 Feb 21;283(5749):781-2. Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria. Albert MJ, Mathan VI, Baker SJ. In man, physiological amounts of vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) are absorbed by the intrinsic factor mediated mechanism exclusively in the ileum. Human faeces contain appreciable quantities of vitamin B12 or vitamin B12-like material presumably produced by bacteria in the colon, but this is unavailable to the non-coprophagic individual. However, the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin. PMID: 7354869 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7354869 > So if we aren't eating soil and it isn't in plants and only then and if > present onlyy as an indirect by product of animals and the human gut > doesn't produce enough, See above. > what is the major source in the human diet and > where does the bacteria live that produces it? read on: > > Vitamin B-12 is naturally found in meat (especially liver and > shellfish), milk and eggs. Animals, in turn, must obtain it directly > or indirectly from bacteria, and these bacteria may inhabit a section > of the gut which is posterior to the section where B-12 is absorbed. > Thus, herbivorous animals must either obtain B-12 from bacteria in > their rumens, or (if fermenting plant material in the hindgut) by > reingestion of cecotrope f�ces. Eggs are often mentioned as a good > B-12 source, but they also contain a factor that blocks > absorption.[23] Certain insects such as termites contain B-12 produced > by their gut bacteria, in a manner analogous to ruminant animals.[24] > An NIH Fact Sheet lists a variety of food sources of vitamin B-12. > > Plants only supply B-12 to humans when the soil containing > B-12-producing microorganisms has not been washed from them. For > example, mushrooms are typically high in B-12 [25], but they are often > grown in soil containing high amounts of manure and bacteria, and > there is a serious question as to whether B-12 may be made by > mushrooms themselves [26], and how much of it would be present after > careful washing [27]. Vegan humans who eat only carefully washed > vegetables must ordinarily take special care to supplement their diets > accordingly. According to the U.K. Vegan Society, the only reliable > vegan sources of B-12 are foods fortified with B-12 (including some > plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals), and B-12 > supplements.[28] > > While lacto-ovo vegetarians usually get enough B-12 through consuming > dairy products, vitamin B-12 may be found to be lacking in those > practicing vegan diets who do not use multivitamin supplements or eat > B-12 fortified foods. Examples of fortified foods often consumed > include fortified breakfast cereals, fortified soy-based products, and > fortified energy bars. Claimed sources of B-12 that have been shown > through direct studies[29] of vegans to be inadequate or unreliable > include, laver (a seaweed), barley grass, and human gut bacteria. > People on a vegan raw food diet are also susceptible to B-12 > deficiency if no supplementation is used^[30]. I see no mention of the all-important cobalt or farming methods...
From: archaea on 6 Aug 2008 07:55 > The link shows the real source of the > vit b12, manure from animalse. "The same bacteria are abundant in healthy soil. In natural ecosystems animal (wildlife) manure would also contribute to environmental B12. No need for domesticated animals (..supplemented with cobalt/B12)." > The amount that could be produced in the > human gut is far from sufficient because of the level of b12 bacteria > there. "In man, physiological amounts of vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) are absorbed by the intrinsic factor mediated mechanism exclusively in the ileum. Human faeces contain appreciable quantities of vitamin B12 or vitamin B12-like material presumably produced by bacteria in the colon, but this is unavailable to the non-coprophagic individual. However, the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin." Here is the core of the reality. There is a cycle involving the gut of animals where bacteria produce vit b12 as a waste product. It is also in animal feces and finally into soil and then can repeat when foraging animals feed. The question is where humans tap into this cycle. We don't eat soil nor animal feces except in tiny amounts after cleaning plant foods. The south indian traditionally lives close to the soil as farmers and live cheek by jowl with cow manure as fertilizer and fuel and building material. Still they have high levels of the disroders resulting from low vit b12. If they use milk there is some there. The bottom line is that plants do not have vit b12 and in some fashion humans must tap into the cycle above. The vast majority except for a tiny minority suchas the jains eat some animal products either directly or indirectly. Human gut bacteria does not produce enough vit b12 to satisfy needs, if it were otherwise there would be no problems in south indians. As the above says, a great deal is flushed from the gut as feces. Humans most often get it from animal products because it is concentrated there in a form most easily absorbed unlike that small to begin with amount in the human gut that is not so easily absorbed.
From: pearl on 6 Aug 2008 12:06 <archaea(a)scfas.com> wrote in message news:g7c3g6$qm5$1(a)aioe.org... > > The link shows the real source of the > > vit b12, manure from animalse. > > "The same bacteria are abundant in healthy soil. In natural ecosystems > animal (wildlife) manure would also contribute to environmental B12. No > need for domesticated animals (..supplemented with cobalt/B12)." > > > The amount that could be produced in the > > human gut is far from sufficient because of the level of b12 bacteria > > there. > > "In man, physiological amounts of vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) are > absorbed by the intrinsic factor mediated mechanism exclusively in > the ileum. Human faeces contain appreciable quantities of vitamin B12 > or vitamin B12-like material presumably produced by bacteria in the > colon, but this is unavailable to the non-coprophagic individual. > However, the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable > microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy > southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of > organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may > synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin." > > Here is the core of the reality. There is a cycle involving the gut of > animals where bacteria produce vit b12 as a waste product. Including humans. > It is also in > animal feces and finally into soil and then can repeat when foraging > animals feed. B12? If that's the case, then why not also by foraging humans? > The question is where humans tap into this cycle. We don't eat soil nor > animal feces except in tiny amounts How is that any different to other foraging animals? > after cleaning plant foods. Did/do foraging humans carefully wash food? > The south > indian traditionally lives close to the soil as farmers and live cheek by > jowl with cow manure as fertilizer and fuel and building material. Still > they have high levels of the disroders resulting from low vit b12. If > they use milk there is some there. Indians consume plenty of milk. Very few are vegan, but, on the other hand, many are still under-nourished - particularly women and children. ( see: http://www.ifpri.org/media/BeijingPlus10/briefIndia.pdf ) > The bottom line is that plants do not have vit b12 Mozafar's study indicates that plants can take up B12 from soil. > and in some fashion > humans must tap into the cycle above. The vast majority except for a tiny > minority suchas the jains eat some animal products either directly or > indirectly. Then according to your reasoning there shouldn't be "high levels of the disroders resulting from low vit b12.", as you've claimed. > Human gut bacteria does not produce enough vit b12 to satisfy needs, 'Suzuki1 (1995, Japan) studied 6 vegan children eating a genmai- saishoku (GS) diet, which is based on high intakes of brown rice and contains plenty of sea vegetables, including 2-4 g of nori per day ("dried laver"); as well as hijiki, wakame, and kombu. *The foods are organically grown and many are high in cobalt* (buckwheat, adzuki beans, kidney beans, shiitake, hijiki). Serum B12 levels of the children are shown: Results of Suzuki.1 age(yrs) years vegan sB12 7.1 4.4 520 7.7 4.4 720 8.6A 8.6 480 8.8A 8.8 300 12.7 10 320 14.6 10 320 average 443 (� 164) A - Exclusively breast-fed until 6 months old. Mothers had been vegan for 9.6 and 6.5 yrs prior to conception. Both mothers consumed 2 g of nori per day. ...' http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/plant > if it > were otherwise there would be no problems in south indians. Who in any case consume dairy... > As the above > says, a great deal is flushed from the gut as feces. Humans most often > get it from animal products because it is concentrated there in a form > most easily absorbed unlike that small to begin with amount in the human > gut that is not so easily absorbed. Vit. B12 tightly bound to protein - requiring high acidity to cut it loose, is more easily absorbed than free B12 produced in the small intestine? That's nonsense.
From: archaea on 6 Aug 2008 14:51
The cycle for vit b12 is bacteria producing it as a waste product in a foraging animal large gut to feces to soil and then return with feeding. Because some foraging animals pass quantities of vit b12 as feces from the large gut, they also eat feces so as to absorb it in the small gut. That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12 as is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12 as a part of its metabolism. The only question is where humans tap into that cycle. We do not as a routine eat soil or feces. All humans directly or indrectly get it from animals. Those who by cultural choice or poverty wo eat mostly or all plant foods must supplement vit b12 by one means or another as a plant alone diet removes themselves more from the cycle. All the minor quibbling I have thus seen on this thread doesn't detract from the above in any way. In fact it is so unremarkable as to make one wonder that the quibblers do so for entertainment absent some great principle of nutrition they wish to defend. |