From: john on

"Rich" <joshew(a)hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jTa9g.971$9W5.899(a)tornado.socal.rr.com...
>
>You cannot rewrite history to conform with your paranoid worldview.

I couldn't put it better myself. See
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/smallpox14.html



From: Rich on

"Max C." <maxc246(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147463673.916939.317270(a)j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Mark Probert wrote:
>> (They would not be worn out if *S*o *C*alled *A*lternative *M*edicine
>> had some form of basis in reality.)
>
> So Alternative Medicine is a S C A M?

For the most part, yes. One only need surf through the world of Altie
websites for awhile to see that nearly all are selling such vague and
meaningless promises as "Restore natural balance" or "Detoxify your body" or
"Maintain proper blood pH."



> Is that what you're implying by
> emphasizing those letters? Does that apply to all alternative
> therapies? Many, if not most alternative practitioners focus on
> nutrition and its role in human health. Are you saying that good
> nutrition is a scam?

Good nutrition is important to health, but it comes from eating a varied
diet of nutritious foods. Nutrition is available at your grocery store, and
anyone who calls himself a "healer" and insists that good nutrition consists
of buying "supplements" from him is selling you a scam.

> Are you saying the chiropractors are scam
> artists?

The premises that spinal misalignment is the cause of disease and that
"adjustments" are necessary to health, or that a chiropractor is an
alternative choice for a family physician are false and dangerous.


> Your sweeping generalization requires some specificity,
> because if you really believe that modern medical professionals are the
> only ones qualified to heal the human body, most readers in the
> alternative news groups will have had enough personal experience with
> alternative practitioners to think of you as a quack.

Personal experience? Realize, please, that eighty percent of people who seek
attention from any healthcare practitioner would have gotten well without
any treatment at all. So if you go to a witch doctor who pays kindly
attention to you, and listens patiently to your complaints, and impresses
you with his diagnosis by throwing a handful of rocks and sticks on the
ground and "reading" them, then applies his therapy of rattles and chants,
and then you go home and feel much better the next day, then you're going to
be a convinced and happy consumer and are going to accuse anyone who points
out that the witch doctor sold you nothing of value of being a quack.



>
> You see, that's exactly what the pharma hounds and FDA lap dogs of
> yesteryear preached. Many of these "experts" testified in court that
> the absence of vitamins and minerals from the human diet could not
> cause degenerative, functional or infectious disease. Of course, we
> now know beyond a doubt that such testimony is pure rubbish. Even the
> average person on the street understands that vitamins and minerals are
> required for good health.

Vitamins and minerals are indeed required for good health. Supplements are
not. Advice from altie quacks is not.


>
> So, what exactly do you mean by your above statement?


I can't speak for Mark, but I define alternative medicine as the use of
unproven methods of diagnosis and treatment of disease by persons who are
unqualified to diagnose and treat disease.
--


--Rich

Recommended websites:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
http://www.acahf.org.au
http://www.quackwatch.org/
http://www.skeptic.com/
http://www.csicop.org/


From: Max C. on
Rich wrote:
> For the most part, yes. One only need surf through the world of Altie
> websites for awhile to see that nearly all are selling such vague and
> meaningless promises as "Restore natural balance" or "Detoxify your body" or
> "Maintain proper blood pH."

I'll agree with the blood pH... to a certain degree. The body will
sacrifice the pH of every other liquid to maintain blood pH. If your
blood pH is off, chances are other bodily fluids are FAR off, and
you've probably developed other signs of pH imbalance, such as gall
stones, kidney stones, arthritis or some other degenerative disease.

> Good nutrition is important to health, but it comes from eating a varied
> diet of nutritious foods. Nutrition is available at your grocery store, and
> anyone who calls himself a "healer" and insists that good nutrition consists
> of buying "supplements" from him is selling you a scam.

Maybe, maybe not. The claim that a person can get all the nutrition
they need from a varied diet is, sadly, outdated. That's because of
the way modern crops and animal foods are raised. Modern farming
methods kill the soil rather than revitalize it, leading to sick crops
and diminished nutrient content.

http://www.emaxhealth.com/14/1303.html
"The study examined 43 common garden crops and found that their content
of vitamins B and C, iron and calcium were low. When comparing today's
crops with those harvested in 1950, the nutrient content had declined
significantly in six out of 13 nutrients: protein, calcium, phosphorus,
iron, riboflavin (vitamin B2) and vitamin C."

"'It is important to try to eat at least five to ten servings of fruit
and vegetables each day,' says Miller. 'But it can be more difficult to
get all the nutrients our bodies need consistently, so people should
consider taking a well-balanced, daily multivitamin to complement their
diet.'"

> > Are you saying the chiropractors are scam
> > artists?
>
> The premises that spinal misalignment is the cause of disease and that
> "adjustments" are necessary to health, or that a chiropractor is an
> alternative choice for a family physician are false and dangerous.

I agree with the second, but not the first. The use of chiropractics
in the treatment of neurodegenerative disease is not well understood,
so there's no way your first statement could be documented to be
absolute. Take this link, for example:

http://nccam.nih.gov/training/centers/descriptions.htm#chiropractic
"The long-range goal of this Developmental Center for Research on CAM
is to improve understanding of the clinical role and mechanisms of
action of chiropractic spinal manipulation. Three preclinical projects
will explore the mechanisms underlying chiropractic manipulation,
studying its biological effects on nerve regulation, biomechanics and
joints, as well as its effects on behavior. A fourth project will
explore variables that predict clinical effectiveness of spinal
manipulation in patients with lower back pain. Investigators will use
pilot data obtained with the support of this three-year award to submit
competitive grant applications to the National Institutes of Health,
and will provide research training experiences for future CAM
investigators. The Center will build on the progress made at the
NCCAM-supported Consortial Center for Chiropractic Research at Palmer
Center for Chiropractic Research."

That page was last modified yesterday, so I doubt the data from said
study is available. It's evidence that spinal misalignment could
possibly be the cause of some diseases. I suppose we'll just have to
wait and see.

> > Your sweeping generalization requires some specificity,
> > because if you really believe that modern medical professionals are the
> > only ones qualified to heal the human body, most readers in the
> > alternative news groups will have had enough personal experience with
> > alternative practitioners to think of you as a quack.
>
> Personal experience? Realize, please, that eighty percent of people who seek
> attention from any healthcare practitioner would have gotten well without
> any treatment at all. So if you go to a witch doctor who pays kindly
> attention to you, and listens patiently to your complaints, and impresses
> you with his diagnosis by throwing a handful of rocks and sticks on the
> ground and "reading" them, then applies his therapy of rattles and chants,
> and then you go home and feel much better the next day, then you're going to
> be a convinced and happy consumer and are going to accuse anyone who points
> out that the witch doctor sold you nothing of value of being a quack.

Yes, that is true... but the same can be said about MDs. In the past,
when I was more dependant on MDs, there were several times that one
would tell me I had "X" and then prescribe "Y" to cure it. Many times
I would see fit to ignore prescription "Y" and in every single case I
got better. Does that mean that those doctors are quacks? I don't
think so... but I don't think they should be held to different
standards as the "alties" you mentioned.

> Vitamins and minerals are indeed required for good health. Supplements are
> not. Advice from altie quacks is not.

Advice from ANY quack is not, altie or med. I've met my fair share of
med quacks in my time. The vitamins and minerals statement is
addressed above.

> > So, what exactly do you mean by your above statement?

> I can't speak for Mark, but I define alternative medicine as the use of
> unproven methods of diagnosis and treatment of disease by persons who are
> unqualified to diagnose and treat disease.

Fair enough, but I question the methods often required to show proof.
Just because a given treatment does not have an associated double
blinded, placebo controlled study to validate it does not mean it's
invalid. In fact, a double blinded, placebo controlled study can often
be misleading, since every single human study on the planet is
multifaceted by the very nature of studying humans. We're not rats
isolated in a cage, and it's very difficult, if not impossible to make
100% sure all variables are accounted for in ANY long-term study.

Max.

From: Rich on

"Max C." <maxc246(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147558273.264874.295470(a)u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> Rich wrote:
>> For the most part, yes. One only need surf through the world of Altie
>> websites for awhile to see that nearly all are selling such vague and
>> meaningless promises as "Restore natural balance" or "Detoxify your body"
>> or
>> "Maintain proper blood pH."
>
> I'll agree with the blood pH... to a certain degree. The body will
> sacrifice the pH of every other liquid to maintain blood pH. If your
> blood pH is off, chances are other bodily fluids are FAR off, and
> you've probably developed other signs of pH imbalance, such as gall
> stones, kidney stones, arthritis or some other degenerative disease.
>
>> Good nutrition is important to health, but it comes from eating a varied
>> diet of nutritious foods. Nutrition is available at your grocery store,
>> and
>> anyone who calls himself a "healer" and insists that good nutrition
>> consists
>> of buying "supplements" from him is selling you a scam.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. The claim that a person can get all the nutrition
> they need from a varied diet is, sadly, outdated. That's because of
> the way modern crops and animal foods are raised. Modern farming
> methods kill the soil rather than revitalize it, leading to sick crops
> and diminished nutrient content.

For the most part, the "killed soil" theory is a marketing claim of the
supplement pushers. Soils that are deficient in plant nutrients produce
stunted plants with poor product yields, so farmers are careful to correct
soil deficits.



>
> http://www.emaxhealth.com/14/1303.html
> "The study examined 43 common garden crops and found that their content
> of vitamins B and C, iron and calcium were low. When comparing today's
> crops with those harvested in 1950, the nutrient content had declined
> significantly in six out of 13 nutrients: protein, calcium, phosphorus,
> iron, riboflavin (vitamin B2) and vitamin C."

The article quotes "a recent U.S. study," but does not provide a referrence
or link. Without any way to validate the authority of this claimed study,
one must conclude the claims are bullshit.


>
> "'It is important to try to eat at least five to ten servings of fruit
> and vegetables each day,' says Miller. 'But it can be more difficult to
> get all the nutrients our bodies need consistently, so people should
> consider taking a well-balanced, daily multivitamin to complement their
> diet.'"

Even if this were true, which I doubt, any needs for supplementation would
be more than met by taking a cheap daily vitamin from the local drug store
without consulting any altie quacks or buying expensive products from scam
internet sources.


>
>> > Are you saying the chiropractors are scam
>> > artists?
>>
>> The premises that spinal misalignment is the cause of disease and that
>> "adjustments" are necessary to health, or that a chiropractor is an
>> alternative choice for a family physician are false and dangerous.
>
> I agree with the second, but not the first. The use of chiropractics
> in the treatment of neurodegenerative disease is not well understood,
> so there's no way your first statement could be documented to be
> absolute. Take this link, for example:
>
> http://nccam.nih.gov/training/centers/descriptions.htm#chiropractic
> "The long-range goal of this Developmental Center for Research on CAM
> is to improve understanding of the clinical role and mechanisms of
> action of chiropractic spinal manipulation. Three preclinical projects
> will explore the mechanisms underlying chiropractic manipulation,
> studying its biological effects on nerve regulation, biomechanics and
> joints, as well as its effects on behavior. A fourth project will
> explore variables that predict clinical effectiveness of spinal
> manipulation in patients with lower back pain. Investigators will use
> pilot data obtained with the support of this three-year award to submit
> competitive grant applications to the National Institutes of Health,
> and will provide research training experiences for future CAM
> investigators. The Center will build on the progress made at the
> NCCAM-supported Consortial Center for Chiropractic Research at Palmer
> Center for Chiropractic Research."
>
> That page was last modified yesterday, so I doubt the data from said
> study is available. It's evidence that spinal misalignment could
> possibly be the cause of some diseases. I suppose we'll just have to
> wait and see.

I have a paraplegic friend who wins wheelchair marathons. Try to tell him
he's not healthy because his spine is out of alignment.




>
>> > Your sweeping generalization requires some specificity,
>> > because if you really believe that modern medical professionals are the
>> > only ones qualified to heal the human body, most readers in the
>> > alternative news groups will have had enough personal experience with
>> > alternative practitioners to think of you as a quack.
>>
>> Personal experience? Realize, please, that eighty percent of people who
>> seek
>> attention from any healthcare practitioner would have gotten well without
>> any treatment at all. So if you go to a witch doctor who pays kindly
>> attention to you, and listens patiently to your complaints, and impresses
>> you with his diagnosis by throwing a handful of rocks and sticks on the
>> ground and "reading" them, then applies his therapy of rattles and
>> chants,
>> and then you go home and feel much better the next day, then you're going
>> to
>> be a convinced and happy consumer and are going to accuse anyone who
>> points
>> out that the witch doctor sold you nothing of value of being a quack.
>
> Yes, that is true... but the same can be said about MDs. In the past,
> when I was more dependant on MDs, there were several times that one
> would tell me I had "X" and then prescribe "Y" to cure it. Many times
> I would see fit to ignore prescription "Y" and in every single case I
> got better. Does that mean that those doctors are quacks? I don't
> think so... but I don't think they should be held to different
> standards as the "alties" you mentioned.

I don't think so either. The eighty percent rule applies to all
practitioners except medical and surgical specialists who have generalist to
screen out the patients who do not need their services.



>
>> Vitamins and minerals are indeed required for good health. Supplements
>> are
>> not. Advice from altie quacks is not.
>
> Advice from ANY quack is not, altie or med. I've met my fair share of
> med quacks in my time. The vitamins and minerals statement is
> addressed above.
>
>> > So, what exactly do you mean by your above statement?
>
>> I can't speak for Mark, but I define alternative medicine as the use of
>> unproven methods of diagnosis and treatment of disease by persons who are
>> unqualified to diagnose and treat disease.
>
> Fair enough, but I question the methods often required to show proof.
> Just because a given treatment does not have an associated double
> blinded, placebo controlled study to validate it does not mean it's
> invalid. In fact, a double blinded, placebo controlled study can often
> be misleading, since every single human study on the planet is
> multifaceted by the very nature of studying humans. We're not rats
> isolated in a cage, and it's very difficult, if not impossible to make
> 100% sure all variables are accounted for in ANY long-term study.

Science is not perfect, and of course there is a vast unknown. But science
has proven to be the most effective and efficient way of knowing. Any
"knowledge" you internalize without the benefit of science is suspect, and
you should be ready to discard it the instant scientific evidence becomes
available. By the way, "double blinded placebo controlled" studies are not
the only methods of modern science. In fact that modality is generally only
used to test the effectiveness of medications. There is a lot more to
science than that.
--


--Rich

Recommended websites:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
http://www.acahf.org.au
http://www.quackwatch.org/
http://www.skeptic.com/
http://www.csicop.org/




From: Mark Probert on
Max C. wrote:
> Mark Probert wrote:
>> Max C. wrote:
>>> Mark Probert wrote:
>>>> (They would not be worn out if *S*o *C*alled *A*lternative *M*edicine
>>>> had some form of basis in reality.)
>>> So Alternative Medicine is a S C A M? Is that what you're implying by
>>> emphasizing those letters? Does that apply to all alternative
>>> therapies? Many, if not most alternative practitioners focus on
>>> nutrition and its role in human health. Are you saying that good
>>> nutrition is a scam? Are you saying the chiropractors are scam
>>> artists? Your sweeping generalization requires some specificity,
>>> because if you really believe that modern medical professionals are the
>>> only ones qualified to heal the human body, most readers in the
>>> alternative news groups will have had enough personal experience with
>>> alternative practitioners to think of you as a quack.
>>>
>>> You see, that's exactly what the pharma hounds and FDA lap dogs of
>>> yesteryear preached. Many of these "experts" testified in court that
>>> the absence of vitamins and minerals from the human diet could not
>>> cause degenerative, functional or infectious disease. Of course, we
>>> now know beyond a doubt that such testimony is pure rubbish. Even the
>>> average person on the street understands that vitamins and minerals are
>>> required for good health.
>>>
>>> So, what exactly do you mean by your above statement?
>> I am sorry, your post did not contain any facts, just your opinion.
>
> Ah, the ol' question dodge game. Sorry, but that wasn't my opinion.

I consider it an opinion and that is all that I need.

See? I learned your dodge real good!

> It's an exact account of what happened the first time Dr. Royal Lee was
> hauled to court by the FDA. The FDA brought "experts" that testified
> in court that the absence of vitamins and minerals from the human diet
> could not cause degenerative, functional or infectious disease. I've
> listened to a lecture of Dr. Lee's explaining the entire case in
> detail. You can see a sample of his story here:
>
> http://www.galaxynutrients.com/category_s/39.htm
> "This is nothing new for Dr. Nelson. Ten years ago he, with his group
> of experts, testified in a similar court, that neither degenerative
> disease, infectious disease, nor functional disease could result from
> any nutritional deficiency."
>
> So, my post did not contain my opinion at all. Now, answer the
> questions.
>
> Max.
>