From: john on

"PeterB" <pkm(a)mytrashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147096908.140648.320990(a)y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>

>>
>> > He also said
>> > that mortality rates have been skewed by over-weighting of data series
>> > with children, who are more vulnerable to the disease. He pegs the
>> > actual case mortality rate at closer to 1-in-7, saying infection rates
>> > would have declined on their own (just more slowly) without
>> > intervention programs.

case mortality http://www.whale.to/a/case.html

essentially a harmless disease if under proper medical care


From: Vaccine-man on
PeterB wrote:
> Vaccine-man wrote:
> > You have two groups of hamsters. One group is immunized with a
> > genetically-engineered yellow fever vaccine virus (17D) that has West
> > Nile virus antigen, while the other is unimmunized. After a few weeks,
> > all the hamsters are infected with 10^4 TCID50 of WNV NY385-99. Half of
> > the unvaccinated hamsters die from WN encephalitis, while none of the
> > vaccinated hamsters show any sign of disease and, of course, none die.
> > How do you interpret this?
>
> For one, laboratory controlled exposure to virus in animals using
> intraperitoneal injections in no way simulates conditions of human
> exposure to viral challenges in the real world.

"No way" - are you sure about this?

> Second, the genetics
> of hamsters are not equivalent to that of human beings.

So what? T cells and B cells operate the same in humans, hamsters,
chimps, mice, dogs, cats, etc., etc., etc...

> Third, while
> demonstrating the effectiveness of the vaccine in hamsters under such
> conditions, it in no way tells us how effective or safe the vaccine may
> be in humans, and therefore the risk-adjusted outcome remains unknown.

Ok, how about this reference:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16617103&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

(It's open access, so you can read the paper online.)

This is why animal models are developed - to show effectiveness and
safety. After that, you move to clinical trials. The first one for this
vaccine seems to reflect what occurs in hamsters. I suppose we next
have to challenge some folks with West Nile virus. Could be a problem
getting by the IRB, but if they do it, and it works, would you be
satisfied that this vaccine works?

From: Vaccine-man on
Smallpox is a harmless disease?

From: john on

"Vaccine-man" <ziggittes(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147103515.617706.226550(a)j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Smallpox is a harmless disease?
>

under proper medical care, not from you in other words

"Not one case receiving homeopathic care died, while the "old school"
doctors lost twenty percent of their (smallpox) cases.....I gave about three
hundred internal vaccinations, five to adults acting as practical nurses; to
the man who installed the telephone and lights in the pest-house; to mothers
who slept with their children while they had smallpox in its severest form.
All of these people, exposed daily, were immune."--W. L. Bonnell, MD
http://www.whale.to/v/bonnell.html

"Dr. Russell T. Trall, the eminent Natural Hygienist, considered smallpox
"as essentially . . . not a dangerous disease." He cared for large numbers
of patients afflicted with smallpox and never lost a case. Under
conventional medical treatment, patients were drugged heroically, bled
profusely, were smothered in blankets, wallowed in dirty linen, were allowed
no water, fresh air and stuffed with milk, brandy or wine. Antimony and
Mercury were medicated in large doses. Physicians kept their patients
bundled up warm in bed, with the room heated and doors and windows carefully
closed, so that not a breath of fresh air could get in, and given freely
large doses of drugs to induce sweating (Sudorifics), plus wine and
aromatized liquors. Fever patients were put into vaporbath chambers in order
to sweat the impurities out of the system. Given no water when they cried
for it and when gasping for air were carried to a dry-hot room and after a
while were returned to the steam torture. Many must have died of Heat
Stroke!"--Dr Shelton DC http://www.whale.to/vaccine/shelton.html

"Both Press and Radio continue to preach that smallpox is a terribly
infectious and deadly scourge. They never tell us that " - . - provided no
mischief be done either by physician or nurse, it is the most safe and
slight of all diseases". (Dr. Thomas Sydenham, 1688).--Lionel Dole
http://www.whale.to/v/dole.html

"Mr. Pickering, who treated cases at Gloucester by the "water cure" method,
declared that his fatality rate was as low as 2 per cent."---- Lilly Loat
[Book 1951] The Truth About Vaccination and Immunization

unvaccinated case fatality-rate for the 1904 portion of the Leicester
epidemic, of only 1.6 per cent. http://www.whale.to/a/biggs.html



and that is without vitamin c as medicine http://www.whale.to/a/levy4.html


From: john on

"PeterB" <pkm(a)mytrashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147100030.764018.50680(a)u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>

>
> For one, laboratory controlled exposure to virus in animals using
> intraperitoneal injections in no way simulates conditions of human
> exposure to viral challenges in the real world. Second, the genetics
> of hamsters are not equivalent to that of human beings. Third, while
> demonstrating the effectiveness of the vaccine in hamsters under such
> conditions, it in no way tells us how effective or safe the vaccine may
> be in humans, and therefore the risk-adjusted outcome remains unknown.
>
>
> PeterB
>

Quite. Animal testing is a complete fraud
http://www.health.org.nz/index.html