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From: River on 18 Jul 2008 20:27
Reading old messages about shoulders width and people complaining that
they have to narrow shoulder or too broad shoulders (in relation with
the rest of the body at least) I have seen the common reply is that
your shoulders are determined by your genetic bone structure and you
can't do nothing about it.

Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
broad shoulders?
Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
shoulders?

These activities in some way must affect the shoulders witdh and
therefore there be something people who have too large shoulders or
too narrow shoulders can do to correct their lack of proportion.

Thanks
From: Bob Volkmer on 18 Jul 2008 23:53
River wrote:
> Reading old messages about shoulders width and people complaining that
> they have to narrow shoulder or too broad shoulders (in relation with
> the rest of the body at least) I have seen the common reply is that
> your shoulders are determined by your genetic bone structure and you
> can't do nothing about it.
>
> Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
> broad shoulders?
> Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
> shoulders?
>
> These activities in some way must affect the shoulders witdh and
> therefore there be something people who have too large shoulders or
> too narrow shoulders can do to correct their lack of proportion.
>
> Thanks

I think you are seeing a correlation and assuming causation. Have you
considered that people swim a lot or do gymnastics may be advantaged by
having broad shoulders? Basketballers tend to be tall and it isn't
because they play basketball.

Bob
From: River on 19 Jul 2008 03:49
On 19 Lug, 05:53, Bob Volkmer <m...(a)volkmer.biz> wrote:
> River wrote:
> > Reading old messages about shoulders width and people complaining that
> > they have to narrow shoulder or too broad shoulders (in relation with
> > the rest of the body at least) I have seen the common reply is that
> > your shoulders are determined by your genetic bone structure and you
> > can't do nothing about it.
>
> > Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
> > broad shoulders?
> > Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
> > shoulders?
>
> > These activities in some way must affect the shoulders witdh and
> > therefore there be something people who have too large shoulders or
> > too narrow shoulders can do to correct their lack of proportion.
>
> > Thanks
>
> I think you are seeing a correlation and assuming causation. Have you
> considered that people swim a lot or do gymnastics may be advantaged by
> having broad shoulders? Basketballers tend to be tall and it isn't
> because they play basketball.
>
> Bob

I don't think large shoulders are needed in gymnastics and beside I
have noticed
that kids who want to do gymnastic desire it out of passion, not
because they've
already tested their body and deemed it the correct one for that
activity.
It's a bit like becoming a pianist. No one becomes a pianist because
he/she realize
his/her hands are correct for piano. All of them become pianist
because of a passion
they develop for the sound of piano. In fact a plethora of pianists
possess hands
that are not particularly fit for pianos (very small palm, very short
fingers,
very thick fingers, very short thumb) And broad shoulders in gymnastic
kids seem
universal, whether they're medalists or have not enough talent and
will give up soon.
It would be interesting to see before-after pics to realize whether
the activity in itself
changed something in the body.

Also large shoulders are otherwise very rare in young children and
I've never seen a young
child with very large shoulders except for athletic or gymnastic young
children.
If the activity itself selected those with large shoulders we should
see young children with
large shoulders more often and in other contexts.

I think basketball must do something to increase bone growth in a way.
Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
growth, I rememeber
reading certain studies that showed that such activities that place a
burden in the bones
(weight lifting, jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in
growing people.
Anecdotally I have to say that I had a classmate who was in basketball
team.
We were 10 year old and the kids in the team were all of average
height and
some where ever shorter. None of them was particularly tall and
nothing in their body
suggested they would become tall. But he indeed became 6.10 as all the
other kids
that were in the team whereas his brothers and parents are all of
average height
on the short side.

Seems to much to me to label them simple coincidences
From: Andrzej Rosa on 19 Jul 2008 04:22
River wrote:

> On 19 Lug, 05:53, Bob Volkmer <m...(a)volkmer.biz> wrote:
>> I think you are seeing a correlation and assuming causation. Have you
>> considered that people swim a lot or do gymnastics may be advantaged by
>> having broad shoulders? Basketballers tend to be tall and it isn't
>> because they play basketball.
>>
>> Bob
>
> I don't think large shoulders are needed in gymnastics and beside I
> have noticed
> that kids who want to do gymnastic desire it out of passion, not
> because they've
> already tested their body and deemed it the correct one for that
> activity.
> It's a bit like becoming a pianist. No one becomes a pianist because
> he/she realize
> his/her hands are correct for piano. All of them become pianist
> because of a passion
> they develop for the sound of piano. In fact a plethora of pianists
> possess hands
> that are not particularly fit for pianos (very small palm, very short
> fingers,
> very thick fingers, very short thumb) And broad shoulders in gymnastic
> kids seem
> universal, whether they're medalists or have not enough talent and
> will give up soon.
> It would be interesting to see before-after pics to realize whether
> the activity in itself
> changed something in the body.
>
> Also large shoulders are otherwise very rare in young children and
> I've never seen a young
> child with very large shoulders except for athletic or gymnastic young
> children.
> If the activity itself selected those with large shoulders we should
> see young children with
> large shoulders more often and in other contexts.
>
> I think basketball must do something to increase bone growth in a way.

Man, that is some crazy stuff you just wrote. While earlier you have some
merit, and training plus diet can change the way your body looks, it has
nothing to do with bones. It affects muscles, fat and tendons. Even bone
mass doesn't seem to be affected by weight training, which some time ago
looked plausible.

> Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
> growth, I rememeber
> reading certain studies that showed that such activities that place a
> burden in the bones
> (weight lifting, jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in
> growing people.

Actually gymnasts have a reason to grow a little, and it's not about putting
burden but about taking it away. I'm aware about a whole bunch of
anecdotal evidence and similar treatments are standard stuff for unequal
leg length and probably other problems too (googlable, I'm sure), so there
you are. While gymnasts aren't midgets, they are not tall. Sorry mate.

> Anecdotally I have to say that I had a classmate who was in basketball
> team.
> We were 10 year old and the kids in the team were all of average
> height and
> some where ever shorter. None of them was particularly tall and
> nothing in their body
> suggested they would become tall. But he indeed became 6.10 as all the
> other kids
> that were in the team whereas his brothers and parents are all of
> average height
> on the short side.
>
> Seems to much to me to label them simple coincidences

Don't write stuff like that. It makes me cringe, and DZ will have a
seizure. He's a statistician, you know.

--
Andrzej Rosa
From: River on 19 Jul 2008 04:49

> Man, that is some crazy stuff you just wrote. While earlier you have some
> merit, and training plus diet can change the way your body looks, it has
> nothing to do with bones. It affects muscles, fat and tendons.

Are you saying that the change in fat, muscles and tendons and all the
possible
minute variations can give the "illusion" of large shoulders? Because
the theory
that people realize they have large shoulders and that's why they
choose certain
sports instead of others doesn't seem very plausible.

> Even bone
> mass doesn't seem to be affected by weight training, which some time ago
> looked plausible.

Studies say otherwise though. And bone mass after growth aside they
also say that
weight bearing stimulus stimulate bone growth in children.
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