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From: Jean on 23 Jul 2008 11:40
Just curious if you keep track of how many have had cancer return after
<0.01 PSA's? If you do, will you please share those stats? I think it
would be interesting to see the averages on how long after
surgery/radiation/etc. that cancer returns and in how many men. And after
which specific treatment. I know ... I'm asking a lot. :o)

Thanks,

Jean

From: Steve Kramer on 23 Jul 2008 15:59
"Jean" <jeand1020(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
news:8MWdnVUW9dNkzRrVnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d(a)comcast.com...
> Just curious if you keep track of how many have had cancer return after
> <0.01 PSA's? If you do, will you please share those stats? I think it
> would be interesting to see the averages on how long after
> surgery/radiation/etc. that cancer returns and in how many men. And after
> which specific treatment. I know ... I'm asking a lot. :o)

You are, based on the way I track things, asking the impossible. But, I
certainly understand the curiosity. As Leonard would tell you, I'm already
skating on thin ice trying to call anything I do a statistic. First, the
"qualification" for getting into my database is anonymously coming to this
NG and stating you or your loved one has cancer. That is pretty much the
end of any reliable stat. I can tell you with great confidence that 100% of
the people in my database have access to an Internet connection :-)

Once they get here, only a few stay -- probably less than a dozen since I
first logged on. Maybe 20 or 40 come back and report quarterly, annually or
after a few years. Otherwise, I just don't know what happened to the rest.

I can give you maybe one guess based on my observations... It seems about
1/3rd of the people with undetectable PSAs after surgery end up with
detectable ones. Most of those within about 1� years. And that is far from
supported by any scientific or refereed documentation.



--
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04, <0.04, <0.1 2/12/08
Illegitimati non carborundum


From: Jean on 23 Jul 2008 16:51
Thank you Steve!! I know it was impossible -- was just wondering if you had
that info. Guess I'm wondering because of Larry. Will just continue to be
very happy about the undetectable PSA's and go from there.

Thanks again,
Jean


"Steve Kramer" <skramer(a)cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:g682k0$dlq$1(a)registered.motzarella.org...
> "Jean" <jeand1020(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:8MWdnVUW9dNkzRrVnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d(a)comcast.com...
>> Just curious if you keep track of how many have had cancer return after
>> <0.01 PSA's? If you do, will you please share those stats? I think it
>> would be interesting to see the averages on how long after
>> surgery/radiation/etc. that cancer returns and in how many men. And
>> after which specific treatment. I know ... I'm asking a lot. :o)
>
> You are, based on the way I track things, asking the impossible. But, I
> certainly understand the curiosity. As Leonard would tell you, I'm
> already skating on thin ice trying to call anything I do a statistic.
> First, the "qualification" for getting into my database is anonymously
> coming to this NG and stating you or your loved one has cancer. That is
> pretty much the end of any reliable stat. I can tell you with great
> confidence that 100% of the people in my database have access to an
> Internet connection :-)
>
> Once they get here, only a few stay -- probably less than a dozen since I
> first logged on. Maybe 20 or 40 come back and report quarterly, annually
> or after a few years. Otherwise, I just don't know what happened to the
> rest.
>
> I can give you maybe one guess based on my observations... It seems about
> 1/3rd of the people with undetectable PSAs after surgery end up with
> detectable ones. Most of those within about 1� years. And that is far
> from supported by any scientific or refereed documentation.
>
>
>
> --
> PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
> Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
> RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
> PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years
> EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
> PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years
> Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
> PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years
> Casodex added daily 07/06
> PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04, <0.04, <0.1 2/12/08
> Illegitimati non carborundum
>

From: Alan Meyer on 23 Jul 2008 22:14
Jean wrote:
> Thank you Steve!! I know it was impossible -- was just wondering if you
> had that info. Guess I'm wondering because of Larry. Will just
> continue to be very happy about the undetectable PSA's and go from there.

As Steve pointed out, the statistics aren't very useful
as guides to what is happening.

In addition to the problems Steve mentioned, I would
speculate that a disproportionate number of the men who
stay in this newsgroup after treatment are men who have
had a recurrence of cancer. I speculate that many men
who have no recurrence have no more interest in the cancer
and don't hang around the group.

But that's pure speculation. It could even be the other
way around. However there are actual scientific statistics
giving recurrence rates based on Gleason score, treatment,
and some other factors. Google for:

prostate cancer recurrence nomogram

and you'll find some of the studies.

Alan
From: Steve Kramer on 24 Jul 2008 08:27
"Jean" <jeand1020(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
news:C6udnRUlVeZXBBrVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d(a)comcast.com...

> Thank you Steve!! I know it was impossible -- was just wondering if you
> had that info. Guess I'm wondering because of Larry. Will just continue
> to be very happy about the undetectable PSA's and go from there.

Sure you're wondering. You are past the 1� years mark. That's the big one,
IMHO.




--
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04, <0.04, <0.1 2/12/08
Illegitimati non carborundum


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