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From: dBo on 13 Jul 2008 15:03
Hey WS I was touched with what you wrote about your friend. I am going
thru a simiar situation with a dear coworker - has dropped at least 40
pounds in the past six months, and turned into a tangerine - some days
are worse that others but the jaundice is horrible - some days her
eyes and her skin are literally dark orange...the people who have to
actually work with her on a daily basis, say that some mornings she
arrives, and enters someone else's office and just sits there saying
nothing staring into space...or else she starts talking nonsense...

A great many of us are deeply concerned. Its an awful thing to see/
watch. She is clearly very ill and either in total denial of that
fact, or just keeping it to herself, as is her right of course, and
choosing not to do anything to help herself.

I tried talking to her exactly once, thinking she might "listen" to me
- basically told her that I don't normally invite myself into other
people's personal affairs uninvited, but that she had invited me into
other very personal affairs going on in her life so I felt I was close
enough to do so, because I was concerned and because I care about her,
I asked her to simply tell me she had been to a doctor recently to see
what is causing her jaundice etc, and that would be the end of our
conversation, and if she hadn't been, then I was telling her she
needed seriously to seek medical attention. Sometimes you just reach
that point where you can't live with yourself if you open your mouth,
and you can't live with yourself if you DON'T open it and say
something.

Her response was that she didn't have a clue what I was talking about
(even when I asked her "have you looked in a mirror lately? You are
aboslutely orange! Do you realize how jaundiced you are?) and to
insist that she feels perfectly FINE, is not having any problems, and
anyway she hates doctors, refuses to go back to her old one who
treated her for cellulitis a couple of years ago because he "groped
her breasts" while she was in the hospital being treated for her leg
problem, and just can't stand the idea of trying to find a new doctor,
she hates doctors etc. I pushed her a little, asked her if she was
still taking meds for cellulitis or something, mentioned a cousin who
ran into a problem with drug inducted hepatits from heart meds a
couple of years ago, things like that.

We all know that there are a great many disorders that can cause
jaundice, hep being only one of them....but her insistance that she
feels perfectly fine, nothing is wrong with her, and she doesn't know
what anyone it talking about was disturbing and disheartening. I know
from experience that this is a bold faced lie, nobody can be that
shade of orange and be feeling "FINE", not having any problems etc....

We have really great health insurance where we work, and there is not
reason for her to not seek medical care and get medical treatment.
Look at me, I went thru tx throughout 2006 and everything was covered
- I once tried to estimate the costs of all the medical treatments,
test, drugs etc and the best I could come up with was in the vacinity
of $100,000 rough figure - I also had a total hip replacement a year
ago, and that was covered as well....excluding a $300 copay and $100
deductible...

Be all that as it may, she is an adult and neither I nor anyone else
can MAKE her seek treatment if she does not want to...what a sad sad
situation. A couple of coworkers keep asking "what the hell is wrong
with her daughters? Can't they see how ill she is??"

I try not to have anymore physical contact with her than necessary at
this point because it is just too painful to see. I try to keep it to
phone contact. Those of us who are close enough to be comfortable with
discussing the problem, not feeling like we are "gossipping" but
rather sharing and venting out concern and frustration about her have
pretty much reached the conclusion that she must:

A). Know what the problem is or have a pretty good idea of what is
going on and

B.) Be making a conscious decision not to seek medical attention,
whether because she does not think there is anything they can do for
her, or because she may be forced to confront other issues, such as
there may be an alcohol problem.

Whatever the case, as I said it is incredibly sad and painful to see.
Those of us who work closest with her, are all very concerned since
she lives alone, her two grown daughters now out on their own, and
does not seem to have any close family close by - that one day she
will simply not show up for work, there will be no sick call and
everyone will be just sitting there asking "has anyone heard from
her?" - and that she will be laying on the floor at home either in a
coma or dead....

Talk about Powerless....I have at least tried in my own way to educate
some of the other folks in regards to liver disease etc, people who
make comments like "its alchohol, what do you expect" and let them
know that it is not as cut and dry as that. Hell I was married for
years to a stark raving alcholic who eventually died as a direct
result of the drinking and even HE never turned the color that this
woman is....so very sad. Just makes you want to grab these people by
the throat and try to shake some sense into them...:(
From: Waterspider on 14 Jul 2008 20:26

"dBo" <frizzy526(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6ffe478d-ac4c-49e9-9ef1-55924b1ef143(a)a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> Hey WS I was touched with what you wrote about your friend. I am going
> thru a simiar situation with a dear coworker - has dropped at least 40
> pounds in the past six months, and turned into a tangerine - some days
> are worse that others but the jaundice is horrible - some days her
> eyes and her skin are literally dark orange...the people who have to
> actually work with her on a daily basis, say that some mornings she
> arrives, and enters someone else's office and just sits there saying
> nothing staring into space...or else she starts talking nonsense...
>
> A great many of us are deeply concerned. Its an awful thing to see/
> watch. She is clearly very ill and either in total denial of that
> fact, or just keeping it to herself, as is her right of course, and
> choosing not to do anything to help herself.
>
> I tried talking to her exactly once, thinking she might "listen" to me
> - basically told her that I don't normally invite myself into other
> people's personal affairs uninvited, but that she had invited me into
> other very personal affairs going on in her life so I felt I was close
> enough to do so, because I was concerned and because I care about her,
> I asked her to simply tell me she had been to a doctor recently to see
> what is causing her jaundice etc, and that would be the end of our
> conversation, and if she hadn't been, then I was telling her she
> needed seriously to seek medical attention. Sometimes you just reach
> that point where you can't live with yourself if you open your mouth,
> and you can't live with yourself if you DON'T open it and say
> something.
>
> Her response was that she didn't have a clue what I was talking about
> (even when I asked her "have you looked in a mirror lately? You are
> aboslutely orange! Do you realize how jaundiced you are?) and to
> insist that she feels perfectly FINE, is not having any problems, and
> anyway she hates doctors, refuses to go back to her old one who
> treated her for cellulitis a couple of years ago because he "groped
> her breasts" while she was in the hospital being treated for her leg
> problem, and just can't stand the idea of trying to find a new doctor,
> she hates doctors etc. I pushed her a little, asked her if she was
> still taking meds for cellulitis or something, mentioned a cousin who
> ran into a problem with drug inducted hepatits from heart meds a
> couple of years ago, things like that.
>
> We all know that there are a great many disorders that can cause
> jaundice, hep being only one of them....but her insistance that she
> feels perfectly fine, nothing is wrong with her, and she doesn't know
> what anyone it talking about was disturbing and disheartening. I know
> from experience that this is a bold faced lie, nobody can be that
> shade of orange and be feeling "FINE", not having any problems etc....
>
> We have really great health insurance where we work, and there is not
> reason for her to not seek medical care and get medical treatment.
> Look at me, I went thru tx throughout 2006 and everything was covered
> - I once tried to estimate the costs of all the medical treatments,
> test, drugs etc and the best I could come up with was in the vacinity
> of $100,000 rough figure - I also had a total hip replacement a year
> ago, and that was covered as well....excluding a $300 copay and $100
> deductible...
>
> Be all that as it may, she is an adult and neither I nor anyone else
> can MAKE her seek treatment if she does not want to...what a sad sad
> situation. A couple of coworkers keep asking "what the hell is wrong
> with her daughters? Can't they see how ill she is??"
>
> I try not to have anymore physical contact with her than necessary at
> this point because it is just too painful to see. I try to keep it to
> phone contact. Those of us who are close enough to be comfortable with
> discussing the problem, not feeling like we are "gossipping" but
> rather sharing and venting out concern and frustration about her have
> pretty much reached the conclusion that she must:
>
> A). Know what the problem is or have a pretty good idea of what is
> going on and
>
> B.) Be making a conscious decision not to seek medical attention,
> whether because she does not think there is anything they can do for
> her, or because she may be forced to confront other issues, such as
> there may be an alcohol problem.
>
> Whatever the case, as I said it is incredibly sad and painful to see.
> Those of us who work closest with her, are all very concerned since
> she lives alone, her two grown daughters now out on their own, and
> does not seem to have any close family close by - that one day she
> will simply not show up for work, there will be no sick call and
> everyone will be just sitting there asking "has anyone heard from
> her?" - and that she will be laying on the floor at home either in a
> coma or dead....
>
> Talk about Powerless....I have at least tried in my own way to educate
> some of the other folks in regards to liver disease etc, people who
> make comments like "its alchohol, what do you expect" and let them
> know that it is not as cut and dry as that. Hell I was married for
> years to a stark raving alcholic who eventually died as a direct
> result of the drinking and even HE never turned the color that this
> woman is....so very sad. Just makes you want to grab these people by
> the throat and try to shake some sense into them...:(

Denial (not just a river in Egypt). Or, maybe she's made the choice to just
die. I don't understand this, I've got a real strong survival instinct, but
I know that some people would rather give up than fight. One thing for sure,
you can't force her to do anything unless maybe until she collapses at work
and you can call the ambulance. Hopefully she gets this chance. Jaundice,
btw, doesn't occur in everyone although I think it's inevetible when the
liver finally packs it in. Does anyone know how to contact her daughters?
This info could be in her personnel file, and at this point I don't think it
would be inappropriate to go there. It's soooo frustrating though, and it's
so difficult not to attempt to intervene.

This morning I got a call from a woman whose 50-year-old son is scheduled to
begin tx at the end of the month. Neither of them know anything about the
disease or the treatment, and Mom is very worried. She's also worried that
Son drinks every day and refuses to quit (doctor is unaware of this). I
don't know either of them, but she asked me to talk to him because they have
a difficult relationship based on her "nagging" about his drinking. She got
my number from the mom of his part-time job boss. So, this afternoon I went
to have a chat with Boss. I learned that Son is brain damaged from an
accident and doesn't absorb a lot of information (I wonder how much of this
is caused by hep c). He's going along with tx because Mom says he has to. He
has no intention of quitting his six-pack a day and weekend parties. I was
advised to stay out of it because it would cause even more problems between
Mom and Son. So..... what to do?


From: TX-012 on 15 Jul 2008 00:46
On Jul 14, 5:26 pm, "Waterspider" <nos...(a)all.com> wrote:

> This morning I got a call from a woman whose 50-year-old son is scheduled to
> begin tx at the end of the month. Neither of them know anything about the
> disease or the treatment, and Mom is very worried. She's also worried that
> Son drinks every day and refuses to quit (doctor is unaware of this). I
> don't know either of them, but she asked me to talk to him because they have
> a difficult relationship based on her "nagging" about his drinking. She got
> my number from the mom of his part-time job boss. So, this afternoon I went
> to have a chat with Boss. I learned that Son is brain damaged from an
> accident and doesn't absorb a lot of information (I wonder how much of this
> is caused by hep c). He's going along with tx because Mom says he has to. He
> has no intention of quitting his six-pack a day and weekend parties. I was
> advised to stay out of it because it would cause even more problems between
> Mom and Son. So..... what to do?

I feel like the brain damaged one now. Oh wait on tx, I kinda am...

Sooo...mom of son wants your help? And son has not yet refused your
help?

So why not be honest with both of them, and urge them to be honest
with their doctor?

Who knows, he might absorb information better than you've been told...

From: dBo on 15 Jul 2008 06:34

> Denial (not just a river in Egypt). Or, maybe she's made the choice to just
> die. I don't understand this, I've got a real strong survival instinct, but
> I know that some people would rather give up than fight. One thing for sure,
> you can't force her to do anything unless maybe until she collapses at work
> and you can call the ambulance. Hopefully she gets this chance. Jaundice,
> btw, doesn't occur in everyone although I think it's inevetible when the
> liver finally packs it in. Does anyone know how to contact her daughters?
> This info could be in her personnel file, and at this point I don't think it
> would be inappropriate to go there. It's soooo frustrating though, and it's
> so difficult not to attempt to intervene.
>
Exaxtly my sentiments having fought so hard to get well, its hard to
comprehend that she would just have made the decision to give up and
die, which is what we all feel like - espceially in the light of the
fact that she also is "all her daughers have", their father being out
of the picture and not likely to return to their lives in any
significant way..

I think alot about the "difference between FORCING a crisis vs
ALLOWING ONE TO HAPPEN in the natural course of events" in that sense
of "maybe she will collapse at work" where she can be carted away in
an ambulance and forced to face things...and keep hands off. She
clearly is either in total denial or as you say, has given up.

It would be possible to contact her daughters - there are younger
girls who work there who are close friends of her daughters, but as
you say, is that someplace one wants to go or not?...Persoanlly I
don't think her daughters are totally oblivious and unaware. She told
another co-worker recently of an incident where she was home working
out in her yard, when some guy stopped out front looking for
directions, claiming he was trying to find his way to pick up his
young son at school and had gotten lost...He turned out to be the man
one of her daughters works for, and he ended up staying for an hour
chatting!!!! (Guess he wasn't exactly LATE in picking up his son...?)
- a little to co-incidental, she was telling this other coworked about
it, like isn't that wierrrrrd, small world, what a coincidence etc.
I'm not buying that one for a second. Her daughers are both in their
early 20's and probably not very wise to the world, ready and willing
to accept what Mom says/tells them if she insists she is fine etc.

The Good News is that I DO know where she lives, and could find her
house, if she just "went missing"...:(
Sigh! :(
From: Kyle J. on 15 Jul 2008 08:45
"TX-012" <withbacon(a)aol.com> wrote in message
news:ab0db855-62df-4225-9c18-6dc6436b1281(a)d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Everything I've read suggests that _heavy_ drinking impairs response
to tx, but 1) it isn't necessarily an all or nothing scenario, it's
just likely to lower the odds, possibly a lot, and 2) Not knowing this
dude, I have no idea if he is a full-blown alcoholic, or if he is
someone who really wouldn't find it difficult to cut his drinking by
50-75% (I once drank about a sixpack/night, but found it very easy to
cut way back on the alcohol once I realized it was Not Improving The
Quality of My Life;)

That was before tx, of course. Can't. Wait. Till. It. Ends. Beer.
Yummy. Beer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm with the doctors on this one. Somebody has to pay for the care and
treatment. Why waste it on sombody who doesn't care enough about themselves
to take an active participation in their recovery? Chances are good that
that same person will cut any other possible corners in their treatment if
it's more "convenient".

It's like drug addicts. You can't help sombody who does not want to be
helped. Been there, done that, bought the shirt and the dragon followed me
home.

Kyle J.


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