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From: Del Cecchi on 4 May 2008 15:54

"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:41b04cc1-08ca-42a1-a263-abdab80dc8df(a)e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> sberne...(a)hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> I am just learning about the Ornish diet and I have a few questions
>> about several things I do not understand:
>>
>> 1) How can corn and potatoes be acceptable? Aren't they starches that
>> convert to sugar in the stomach?

Ornish is very low fat, not low carb, as I recall.
>
> Your calories have to come from somewhere. Low carbers end
> up high fat, low fatters end up high carb.
>
>> 3) Sugar is not allowed yet in some of Dr. Ornish's recipes, sugar and
>> honey are sometimes ingredients. What gives?
>
> I see this same conflict in the Atkins book on the opposite end
> of the dieting spectrum. At best Dr O reviewed the recipes and
> it demonstrates how strict or loose the details of the rules are.
> At worst Dr O doesn't cook and didn't carefully review the
> recipes.

Very unlikely he cooks, being a famous doctor running his institute and
all.
Sometimes a small amount of sugar would be ok, it seems to me. Is it
necessary to have exactly zero refined sugar? I doubt it.
>
>> 4) Grains such as whole wheat are okay. Does that make bread okay?
>
> The problem with whole grain bread - Many brands that say whole
> grain actually use whole grain at spice levels to change the flavor
> or color but the majority of the flour used is refined. It is
> important
> to read the label and confirm that all of the grain used is whole
> grain and none refined. Bread entirely from whole wheat/rye/etc
> does not last as well so it costs more and is harder to find.

Look for "100% whole wheat" on the label. Or read the ingredients to see
what is in it. Commercial 100% whole wheat seems to keep ok. But it is
a lower volume product so is more expensive. But there is a brand at
Sam's club that is 100 percent, palatable, and reasonable.

del


From: Doug Freyburger on 5 May 2008 10:15
"Del Cecchi" <delcecchioftheno...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> "Doug Freyburger" <dfrey...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> > sberne...(a)hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >> I am just learning about the Ornish diet and I have a few questions
> >> about several things I do not understand:
>
> >> 1) How can corn and potatoes be acceptable? Aren't they starches that
> >> convert to sugar in the stomach?
>
> Ornish is very low fat, not low carb, as I recall.

I recall Atkins/Ornish debates on various TV shows. Both
good doctors were understandable and civil. But being an
At-kid, I only addressed the points I knew mappped across.

> > Your calories have to come from somewhere.  Low carbers end
> > up high fat, low fatters end up high carb.

Which is why I gave this answer - Since the calories have to
come from somewhere, low fat plans can't drop starchy
foods. Any limitation of sugar can't take digestion into
account or the plan becomes a starvation plan.

> >> 3) Sugar is not allowed yet in some of Dr. Ornish's recipes, sugar and
> >> honey are sometimes ingredients. What gives?
>
> > I see this same conflict in the Atkins book on the opposite end
> > of the dieting spectrum.  At best Dr O reviewed the recipes and
> > it demonstrates how strict or loose the details of the rules are.
> > At worst Dr O doesn't cook and didn't carefully review the
> > recipes.
>
> Very unlikely he cooks, being a famous doctor running his institute and
> all.

If so then I'm not sure if I should be displeased at the lack of
review and corrections of recipes that don't follow the plan, or
displeased at lack of caveats in the plan about how hard or
soft each rule is - Is such-and-such rule really a loose
guideline because of what's in a recipe later in the book or is
the recipe a mistake?

I think this ultimately comes down to getting a book to the
publisher on a deadline. Allow each and every error or point
of potential confusion to be resolved and the book gets
published posthumously several decades later. And so folks
who read almost any non-fiction book are able to find problems
like this.
From: dkw12002 on 5 May 2008 19:24
On Apr 30, 6:15 pm, sberne...(a)hotmail.com wrote:
> I am just learning about the Ornish diet and I have a few questions
> about several things I do not understand:
>
> 1) How can corn and potatoes be acceptable? Aren't they starches that
> convert to sugar in the stomach?
>
> 2) No nuts and seeds. Legumes are okay. Fine. Technically, peanuts are
> legumes. Are peanuts and peanut butter not acceptable?
>
> 3) Sugar is not allowed yet in some of Dr. Ornish's recipes, sugar and
> honey are sometimes ingredients. What gives?
>
> 4) Grains such as whole wheat are okay. Does that make bread okay? If
> so, certain sandwiches must be okay then, right? Say, a Polaner fruit
> spread sandwich? Ever hear of Ezekiel bread (sprouted grain bread)? Is
> this any good?
>
> 5) Is popcorn okay? As long as it's air-popped? As long as no oil,
> butter, etc. is slathered on it?
>
> 6) People on this board often say, for example, "1 cup brown rice". Is
> this 1 cup before cooking it or after?
>
> Thank you.

I've been on the Ornish diet for over 3 years now, so I know a couple
of things about it. No, peanut butter and peanuts are not OK. They are
very high fat. The diet is low fat, high carb, adequate protein, with
little or no meat. There is not much in the way of refined carbs
(sugar) in the ORnish diet. Most is complex carbs, which require time
and effort to break down. I personally eat a lot of bread. Today, for
example I had 8 slices of bread plus there was bread in my Subway
Veggie Delight. I eat a lot of oats, veggies, whole wheat. I also
drink nonfat milk and eat egg whites which is OK with Ornish. I eat
almost the opposite of the Atkins diet and am vegetarian. There is one
great thing about eating low fat and that is that you get to eat MORE
FOOD by weight, because fat...all fat, has 9 calories per gram, while
carbs and protein have 4 calories per gram. Add to that high fiber and
high water foods such as prepared oats, prepared lentils, green
beans...beans of any kind really, all whole grains eaten as cereal
which are both high fiber and high water and low fat, and you get to
eat much, much more for the same calories. This works for me since I
am basically a big eater. If I loved meat and fat, I would probably
try Atkins, but I don't care for meat, so this diet works very well
for me. I'm also in great shape and health far as I know at 5'8" and
138 pounds. I count calories religiously and eat exactly 2025 each day
and work out moderately 6 times a week. The Ornish diet really works,
but if you would feel deprived by eating low-fat and no meat, then you
could try a different diet. They all work so long as you count
calories accurately and know your caloric needs. dkw
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