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From: kgrhoads on 30 Jul 2008 11:14
On Jul 30, 12:07 am, "Elizabeth" <esniv...(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
> Kevin,
>
> Just wondering, do you or your family have any problem with insomnia on
> those doses? I have recently started to feel more awake than I have for
> probably over a year. Sometimes this causes a delay in falling asleep --
> usually if I'm not asleep within an hour, I get up and do something else for
> a while. I don't have the anxiety that I once had.
>
> I have no idea if I'm at the right dose or not. My only remaining symptoms
> are fatigue and a mildly depressed mood, but they seem to abate once in a
> while now, usually coming and going together. I'm only on 62.5 mcg
> Synthroid, which seems a very small dose but fT4 is now well over mid-range.
> My fT3 is still low- to mid-range though.
>
> Elizabeth
>
> <kgrho...(a)alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
>
> > DOSES: self 120 mg armour + 200 mcg T4 (four divided doses)
> > wife: 150 mg armour + 125 mcg T4 (seven doses)
> > son: 120 mg armour + 175 mcg T4 (four doses)

1) yes, these doses are quite high
2) Insomnia has been a problem -- mostly when we were on lower doses
3) the dividing doses has an effect -- if you eat so many calories as
one
meal a day versus the same food divided into several meals has an
effect
This has been proven repeatedly in nutrition studies. Generally, you
will absorb more calories with one big meal, but not absorb as much
of vitamins and trace minerals. Breaking it into three or four or
more,
the absorption of trace minerals and vitamins tends to inprove, while
calories are less absorbed. So by dividing our doses into four or
more,
we may absorb the thyroid hormones less well. It is just not clear.
4) further on insomnia -- we have had several posters here in a.s.t
who have said they had trouble sleeping when taking thyroid meds
at breakfast, but taking synth-T4 only meds at bedtime helped
getting solid sleep
5) it is "well known" in the medical literature (quotes, because as
far as I can tell things that are all over the literature are not
necessarily known to MDs) that T3 absorption tends to be nearly
100% in just about all cases -- whereas T4 requires some stomach
acidity, the absence of certain things (like fiber, calcium, iron) and
even so is never 100% or even near
6) I get the impression that T4 in armour is better absorbed than
from synth-T4 preps -- but this hasn't been as extensively studied
7) we went to divided doses to avoid a "zippiness" that came with
taking thyroid meds all at once -- when the MDs up here had
us switch to synth-T4 and cytomel -- we may not have to do this
on armour w/ synth-T4, but had got into the habit (our observations
were that synth-T3/cytomel hit much faster and wore off faster
than the T3 in armour - much more the roller-coaster effect)
8) just remember the "synthetic thyroid preparations are better"
mantra came from untested prejudice that also gave us the
"formula is better than breast-milk" bushwa that took several
decades to debunk

Certainly armour is not for everyone, nor are such high doses.
In fact, I suspect such high doses would be very problematic
for anyone with even the slightest tinge of adrenal insufficiency.

It appears that when one is hypo-thyroid (whether undiagnosed,
untreated or UNDER-treated) that the adrenal output and
capacity decrease. These do NOT recover fast. It takes
months, sometimes years. Boosting the thyroid back
to where it "should" be when the adrenals are impaired
is not good. People in that state feel much worse. But
it appears that the standard tests for adrenal function are
not very good at detecting/diagnosing MILD adrenal
insufficiencies. So often people get their MDs to boost
thyroid, feel worse (I suspect because of adrenal issues)
and get told -- "see, you didn't need that; that level had
you over-replaced" -- and then spend the rest of their
lives with a grade B or C or D level quality of life because
both thyroid and adrenals are lowish.

Proof? I haven't got any proof. But neither do the
MDs for either side of the "gold standard" for hypo-
treatment.

So, I got a lot of questions -- a lot of suspicions --
and limited or no evidence for much of it. But,
unlike your average MD, at least I know what I
don't know. They believe they do know and they
don't.

So, that's what I know, what I believe, what I suspect
and what I question -- does any of it help?
From: kgrhoads on 30 Jul 2008 11:17
On Jul 30, 9:24 am, "Dee" <jlmacdoug...(a)eastlink.ca> wrote:
> The amount you and your family members are taking are quite high, which is
> why I went in with the preceived notion that I should also be higher than 60
> mgs. But, it seems to be the concensus that since I'm a small adult, that
> I'm going to see how my tests go, and not go strictly by the numbers (so I
> know not to do that; and my doctor knows not to do that), but go by how I
> feel in accordance with those numbers.
>
> Dee
>
> <kgrho...(a)alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:078e31ab-7103-4d49-ac8d-8aca4573b057(a)z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jul 29, 10:57 am, "Dee" <jlmacdoug...(a)eastlink.ca> wrote:
> >> Hi, I went to my doctor yesterday to re-do my blood work requisition
> >> (because there were more things I wanted to add). He was agreeable to
> >> everything (he's good like that); but didn't think I need to retest my
> >> anti-bodies since we've already determined they are high, which lead to
> >> the
> >> Hashimoto's diagnosis. Any comments about that? Should I retest that at
> >> some
> >> point, at least?
>
> >> Also, I told him I upped my dosage to 60 mgs of dessicated Thyroid. And,
> >> he
> >> wants me to stay there; in fact, he thinks that may be all I need, and he
> >> was alarmed when I said most people I 'talk' to (on the internet ; ) )
> >> are
> >> taking at least 100 mgs or more (as a maintenance dose).
>
> >> OK, that shocked me that he thinks 60 mgs is enough. It does not seem
> >> like
> >> enough according to all the info I've found; but he said it's equal to
> >> about
> >> 100 mcgs of Synthroid, and that someone my size (~95 lbs, ~5' 3.5")
> >> doesn't
> >> need much more. I told him I was going to dose by complete elimination of
> >> symptoms, body temp, and (how do they put that?) highest normal level of
> >> Free T3 no matter how low the TSH gets. He concurs with that. But only 60
> >> mgs? Does this sound right? He at least wants me to stay there until my
> >> blood work in two weeks. If I don't 'crash' at some point on this amount
> >> until my blood work, I will; but if I feel I need to raise it... I just
> >> might. By the way, my body temp is still only 36.6 or 36.7 C (97.9 F, I
> >> think.), at most, after being on the medication for a month.
>
> >> Dee (confused and worried now)
>
> > DOSES: self 120 mg armour + 200 mcg T4 (four divided doses)
> > wife: 150 mg armour + 125 mcg T4 (seven doses)
> > son: 120 mg armour + 175 mcg T4 (four doses)


So, go by symptoms and don't worry too much about TSH and
see where you get. We also plot T3 and T4 numbers versus
reference ranges and watch where those levels are. I had a
long response to Elizabeth elsewhere in this thread on this
same issue -- some of my ramblings there may be of use.

I wish I had solid answers for people, but all I have are suspicions
and questions, usually. But unlike the MDs I won't mislead
people as to the uncertainties that remain.

HTH
Kevin
From: Alan B. Mac Farlane on 30 Jul 2008 17:59
in article LICjk.2606$nu6.761(a)edtnps83, Dee at jlmacdougall(a)eastlink.ca
wrote on 7/29/08 3:57 AM:

> Dee (confused and worried now)


Hi Dee ...

Please do what you can to 'refuse to live in fear' ... as confusion is just
a fear of knowing what is going on.

As for they thyroidgobbulin test (anti-bodies, tumor markers) I would do the
test ... since base line as been established it is important to see if the
tumor markers are going UP or better yet going DOWN.

With working the bitter salty tears out of the brainpain ... your
anti-bodies will go DOWN. Your Doctor wants you to say Hashi all your life,
hence no need to look at it. Bad news is that you are pre-cancerious ...
and if you keep doing what you are doing because you have to as this is who
you are ... then you will become cancerous later on down the road.

IMO and all that rot.

As for your thyroid panel, if it is working, you have profile spot on ...
then you can work your symptoms and get better.

When your thyroid panel is OFF, then you can NOT fix anything.

No elective surgery if your thyroid is OFF - only emergency surgery to save
your life is allowed. As the surgery will be hard and the healing from it
will be hard, and you will be open to wound infection and death that way as
your thyroid panel is off.

Try not to become hyperthyroid ... if you get thyroid cancer you will have
to go hyperthyroid. It is not that great of a life being clincinally hyper
for maintenance dose.

sumbuddie knows wazzup

:)

From: Elizabeth on 30 Jul 2008 21:00
Yes, most everything you post is helpful...! This group has helped
tremendously. I look for certain posters, yourself included, as well as
following the new people who come on board. I have noticed that some of our
fellow sufferers who have gone on to Armour have been noticeably absent from
this board after a while. This does not seem coincidental. Those of us on
synthetic T4 struggle on... As soon as I am able to see the new doc, perhaps
I will have some better luck. Thanks, as always. Meanwhile, I will switch my
dosing time to the evening and see what happens.

Elizabeth

<kgrhoads(a)alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:0c3a4fe4-10db-482f-b5f5-f8fc11f3794f(a)56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 30, 12:07 am, "Elizabeth" <esniv...(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Kevin,
>>
>> Just wondering, do you or your family have any problem with insomnia on
>> those doses? I have recently started to feel more awake than I have for
>> probably over a year. Sometimes this causes a delay in falling asleep --
>> usually if I'm not asleep within an hour, I get up and do something else
>> for
>> a while. I don't have the anxiety that I once had.
>>
>> I have no idea if I'm at the right dose or not. My only remaining
>> symptoms
>> are fatigue and a mildly depressed mood, but they seem to abate once in a
>> while now, usually coming and going together. I'm only on 62.5 mcg
>> Synthroid, which seems a very small dose but fT4 is now well over
>> mid-range.
>> My fT3 is still low- to mid-range though.
>>
>> Elizabeth
>>
>> <kgrho...(a)alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
>>
>> > DOSES: self 120 mg armour + 200 mcg T4 (four divided doses)
>> > wife: 150 mg armour + 125 mcg T4 (seven doses)
>> > son: 120 mg armour + 175 mcg T4 (four doses)
>
> 1) yes, these doses are quite high
> 2) Insomnia has been a problem -- mostly when we were on lower doses
> 3) the dividing doses has an effect -- if you eat so many calories as
> one
> meal a day versus the same food divided into several meals has an
> effect
> This has been proven repeatedly in nutrition studies. Generally, you
> will absorb more calories with one big meal, but not absorb as much
> of vitamins and trace minerals. Breaking it into three or four or
> more,
> the absorption of trace minerals and vitamins tends to inprove, while
> calories are less absorbed. So by dividing our doses into four or
> more,
> we may absorb the thyroid hormones less well. It is just not clear.
> 4) further on insomnia -- we have had several posters here in a.s.t
> who have said they had trouble sleeping when taking thyroid meds
> at breakfast, but taking synth-T4 only meds at bedtime helped
> getting solid sleep
> 5) it is "well known" in the medical literature (quotes, because as
> far as I can tell things that are all over the literature are not
> necessarily known to MDs) that T3 absorption tends to be nearly
> 100% in just about all cases -- whereas T4 requires some stomach
> acidity, the absence of certain things (like fiber, calcium, iron) and
> even so is never 100% or even near
> 6) I get the impression that T4 in armour is better absorbed than
> from synth-T4 preps -- but this hasn't been as extensively studied
> 7) we went to divided doses to avoid a "zippiness" that came with
> taking thyroid meds all at once -- when the MDs up here had
> us switch to synth-T4 and cytomel -- we may not have to do this
> on armour w/ synth-T4, but had got into the habit (our observations
> were that synth-T3/cytomel hit much faster and wore off faster
> than the T3 in armour - much more the roller-coaster effect)
> 8) just remember the "synthetic thyroid preparations are better"
> mantra came from untested prejudice that also gave us the
> "formula is better than breast-milk" bushwa that took several
> decades to debunk
>
> Certainly armour is not for everyone, nor are such high doses.
> In fact, I suspect such high doses would be very problematic
> for anyone with even the slightest tinge of adrenal insufficiency.
>
> It appears that when one is hypo-thyroid (whether undiagnosed,
> untreated or UNDER-treated) that the adrenal output and
> capacity decrease. These do NOT recover fast. It takes
> months, sometimes years. Boosting the thyroid back
> to where it "should" be when the adrenals are impaired
> is not good. People in that state feel much worse. But
> it appears that the standard tests for adrenal function are
> not very good at detecting/diagnosing MILD adrenal
> insufficiencies. So often people get their MDs to boost
> thyroid, feel worse (I suspect because of adrenal issues)
> and get told -- "see, you didn't need that; that level had
> you over-replaced" -- and then spend the rest of their
> lives with a grade B or C or D level quality of life because
> both thyroid and adrenals are lowish.
>
> Proof? I haven't got any proof. But neither do the
> MDs for either side of the "gold standard" for hypo-
> treatment.
>
> So, I got a lot of questions -- a lot of suspicions --
> and limited or no evidence for much of it. But,
> unlike your average MD, at least I know what I
> don't know. They believe they do know and they
> don't.
>
> So, that's what I know, what I believe, what I suspect
> and what I question -- does any of it help?


From: Dee on 31 Jul 2008 07:47

"Alan B. Mac Farlane" <alanb(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
news:C4B6324E.53802%alanb(a)sonic.net...
> in article LICjk.2606$nu6.761(a)edtnps83, Dee
> wrote on 7/29/08 3:57 AM:
>
>> Dee (confused and worried now)
>
>
> Hi Dee ...
>
> Please do what you can to 'refuse to live in fear' ... as confusion is
> just
> a fear of knowing what is going on.
> As for they thyroidgobbulin test (anti-bodies, tumor markers) I would do
> the
> test ... since base line as been established it is important to see if the
> tumor markers are going UP or better yet going DOWN.

Hi Alan, I'll bring this up to my doctor. I'd actually like to know what's
going on with that - if not everytime I get bloodwork, at least
occasionally. I think, though (I may be mistaken), with Hashimoto's the
attacks wax and wane, so you could have high antibodies one time, and lower
the next, only to go high again. Not sure on that, though.

This auto-immune 'stuff'; it would be great if there was a way to shut that
off.

>
> With working the bitter salty tears out of the brainpain ... your
> anti-bodies will go DOWN. Your Doctor wants you to say Hashi all your
> life,
> hence no need to look at it. Bad news is that you are pre-cancerious ...
> and if you keep doing what you are doing because you have to as this is
> who
> you are ... then you will become cancerous later on down the road.
>
> IMO and all that rot.
>
> As for your thyroid panel, if it is working, you have profile spot on ...
> then you can work your symptoms and get better.
>
> When your thyroid panel is OFF, then you can NOT fix anything.

That makes sense.

> No elective surgery if your thyroid is OFF - only emergency surgery to
> save
> your life is allowed. As the surgery will be hard and the healing from it
> will be hard, and you will be open to wound infection and death that way
> as
> your thyroid panel is off.
>
> Try not to become hyperthyroid ... if you get thyroid cancer you will have
> to go hyperthyroid. It is not that great of a life being clincinally
> hyper
> for maintenance dose.

I'll heed your advice. Thanks.

Dee
>
> sumbuddie knows wazzup
>
> :)
>


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