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From: Dee on 30 Jul 2008 05:27
Elizabeth, I'm under the impression that your Free T3 is supposed to be in
the upper range.

Dee

"Elizabeth" <esnively(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:od-dnX3lU54RLRLVnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d(a)earthlink.com...
> Kevin,
>
> Just wondering, do you or your family have any problem with insomnia on
> those doses? I have recently started to feel more awake than I have for
> probably over a year. Sometimes this causes a delay in falling asleep --
> usually if I'm not asleep within an hour, I get up and do something else
> for a while. I don't have the anxiety that I once had.
>
> I have no idea if I'm at the right dose or not. My only remaining symptoms
> are fatigue and a mildly depressed mood, but they seem to abate once in a
> while now, usually coming and going together. I'm only on 62.5 mcg
> Synthroid, which seems a very small dose but fT4 is now well over
> mid-range. My fT3 is still low- to mid-range though.
>
> Elizabeth
>
> <kgrhoads(a)alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
> news:078e31ab-7103-4d49-ac8d-8aca4573b057(a)z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 29, 10:57 am, "Dee" <jlmacdoug...(a)eastlink.ca> wrote:
>>> Hi, I went to my doctor yesterday to re-do my blood work requisition
>>> (because there were more things I wanted to add). He was agreeable to
>>> everything (he's good like that); but didn't think I need to retest my
>>> anti-bodies since we've already determined they are high, which lead to
>>> the
>>> Hashimoto's diagnosis. Any comments about that? Should I retest that at
>>> some
>>> point, at least?
>>>
>>> Also, I told him I upped my dosage to 60 mgs of dessicated Thyroid. And,
>>> he
>>> wants me to stay there; in fact, he thinks that may be all I need, and
>>> he
>>> was alarmed when I said most people I 'talk' to (on the internet ; ) )
>>> are
>>> taking at least 100 mgs or more (as a maintenance dose).
>>>
>>> OK, that shocked me that he thinks 60 mgs is enough. It does not seem
>>> like
>>> enough according to all the info I've found; but he said it's equal to
>>> about
>>> 100 mcgs of Synthroid, and that someone my size (~95 lbs, ~5' 3.5")
>>> doesn't
>>> need much more. I told him I was going to dose by complete elimination
>>> of
>>> symptoms, body temp, and (how do they put that?) highest normal level of
>>> Free T3 no matter how low the TSH gets. He concurs with that. But only
>>> 60
>>> mgs? Does this sound right? He at least wants me to stay there until my
>>> blood work in two weeks. If I don't 'crash' at some point on this amount
>>> until my blood work, I will; but if I feel I need to raise it... I just
>>> might. By the way, my body temp is still only 36.6 or 36.7 C (97.9 F, I
>>> think.), at most, after being on the medication for a month.
>>>
>>> Dee (confused and worried now)
>>
>> Prior to the mid 1970's switch to using TSH to set dose, the common
>> maintenance
>> doses for Armour were 2 grains (120 mg) to 3 grains (180 mg).
>>
>> The reaction by most MDs during the switch from symptom based dosing
>> to
>> TSH based dosing was "OMG -- we were overdosing people". But the use
>> of TSH to determine adequacy of dose REMAINS AN UNTESTED THEORY.
>>
>> Before you can "prove" that TSH is useful in monitoring dose, and
>> further
>> that use of the ranges that are normal for people without thyroid
>> problems,
>> you must prove certain assumptions to be true. THese have never been
>> tested. Just to consider the big three:
>>
>> 1) Does TSH respond to one large dose the same way as it does to
>> continuous release by an intact thyroid gland -- No, what evidence
>> there is seems to prove this JUST AIN'T SO
>> 2) since both armour and synth-T4 have T3/T4 ratios different
>> from juman thyroid gland release, can we prove that TSH responds
>> to these differing ratios in the same way -- again, unproven, but
>> again what evidence exists seems to indicate: NO
>> 3) Since TSH varies throughout the day, as do serum levels
>> of T4 and T3, depending upon when thyroid dose was taken,
>> are variations in levels due to relative timing of test to dose-taking
>> properly accounted for -- NO -- NO MD DOES THIS
>> So the answer of whether the dose you are on is adequate,
>> too low or too high depends on when your blood was drawn?
>> NO! Bad test design, Bad test result interpretation!
>>
>> The use of TSH to monitor adequacy of dose is NOT
>> scientifically valid. Results based on this approach
>> are therefore NOT VALID.
>>
>> MDs who set thyroid dose using TSH are PRACTICING
>> VOODOO, not medicine.
>>
>> Disclaimer - my doctorate is not in medicine, but does
>> cover (electrical) measurement and testing
>>
>> DOSES: self 120 mg armour + 200 mcg T4 (four divided doses)
>> wife: 150 mg armour + 125 mcg T4 (seven doses)
>> son: 120 mg armour + 175 mcg T4 (four doses)
>
>


From: Dee on 30 Jul 2008 05:31
Good advice, Michael. I'll get the blood work done, and see what's
happening, and go from there.

Dee

"Herman Family" <the_sawdust_place_no_underscore(a)frontiernet.net> wrote in
message news:xiQjk.4651$Uw.2322(a)fe107.usenetserver.com...
>
> "Dee" <jlmacdougall(a)eastlink.ca> wrote in message
> news:LICjk.2606$nu6.761(a)edtnps83...
>> Hi, I went to my doctor yesterday to re-do my blood work requisition
>> (because there were more things I wanted to add). He was agreeable to
>> everything (he's good like that); but didn't think I need to retest my
>> anti-bodies since we've already determined they are high, which lead to
>> the Hashimoto's diagnosis. Any comments about that? Should I retest that
>> at some point, at least?
>>
>> Also, I told him I upped my dosage to 60 mgs of dessicated Thyroid. And,
>> he wants me to stay there; in fact, he thinks that may be all I need, and
>> he was alarmed when I said most people I 'talk' to (on the internet ; ) )
>> are taking at least 100 mgs or more (as a maintenance dose).
>>
>> OK, that shocked me that he thinks 60 mgs is enough. It does not seem
>> like enough according to all the info I've found; but he said it's equal
>> to about 100 mcgs of Synthroid, and that someone my size (~95 lbs, ~5'
>> 3.5") doesn't need much more. I told him I was going to dose by complete
>> elimination of symptoms, body temp, and (how do they put that?) highest
>> normal level of Free T3 no matter how low the TSH gets. He concurs with
>> that. But only 60 mgs? Does this sound right? He at least wants me to
>> stay there until my blood work in two weeks. If I don't 'crash' at some
>> point on this amount until my blood work, I will; but if I feel I need to
>> raise it... I just might. By the way, my body temp is still only 36.6 or
>> 36.7 C (97.9 F, I think.), at most, after being on the medication for a
>> month.
>>
>> Dee (confused and worried now)
>>
> Dee,
>
> The doctor is right, or at least not far from wrong. Many of us are a
> tad larger than you and probably require a little more. You may notice
> that the dosage needs some adjustment over time. How you feel is
> generally not a great way to dose when you are close to the right level.
> Too much and too little share symptoms, and the speed at which you will
> feel better or worse is very deceptive. For now, you apparently are on
> the right dose. Stay at this level for at least 6 weeks, then retest to
> see where you are. If the numbers aren't good, and how you feel
> correlates with them, make a dosage adjustment.
>
> As far as antibodies go, it really isn't necessary to test for them a
> second time. You won't change anything based on the test results and it
> won't change the diagnosis, or the prognosis.
>
> Michael
>


From: Rod on 30 Jul 2008 05:46
Dee wrote:
> The amount you and your family members are taking are quite high, which is
> why I went in with the preceived notion that I should also be higher than 60
> mgs. But, it seems to be the concensus that since I'm a small adult, that
> I'm going to see how my tests go, and not go strictly by the numbers (so I
> know not to do that; and my doctor knows not to do that), but go by how I
> feel in accordance with those numbers.
>
> Dee
>
> <kgrhoads(a)alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
> news:078e31ab-7103-4d49-ac8d-8aca4573b057(a)z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 29, 10:57 am, "Dee" <jlmacdoug...(a)eastlink.ca> wrote:
>>> Hi, I went to my doctor yesterday to re-do my blood work requisition
>>> (because there were more things I wanted to add). He was agreeable to
>>> everything (he's good like that); but didn't think I need to retest my
>>> anti-bodies since we've already determined they are high, which lead to
>>> the
>>> Hashimoto's diagnosis. Any comments about that? Should I retest that at
>>> some
>>> point, at least?
>>>
>>> Also, I told him I upped my dosage to 60 mgs of dessicated Thyroid. And,
>>> he
>>> wants me to stay there; in fact, he thinks that may be all I need, and he
>>> was alarmed when I said most people I 'talk' to (on the internet ; ) )
>>> are
>>> taking at least 100 mgs or more (as a maintenance dose).
>>>
>>> OK, that shocked me that he thinks 60 mgs is enough. It does not seem
>>> like
>>> enough according to all the info I've found; but he said it's equal to
>>> about
>>> 100 mcgs of Synthroid, and that someone my size (~95 lbs, ~5' 3.5")
>>> doesn't
>>> need much more. I told him I was going to dose by complete elimination of
>>> symptoms, body temp, and (how do they put that?) highest normal level of
>>> Free T3 no matter how low the TSH gets. He concurs with that. But only 60
>>> mgs? Does this sound right? He at least wants me to stay there until my
>>> blood work in two weeks. If I don't 'crash' at some point on this amount
>>> until my blood work, I will; but if I feel I need to raise it... I just
>>> might. By the way, my body temp is still only 36.6 or 36.7 C (97.9 F, I
>>> think.), at most, after being on the medication for a month.
>>>
>>> Dee (confused and worried now)
>> Prior to the mid 1970's switch to using TSH to set dose, the common
>> maintenance
>> doses for Armour were 2 grains (120 mg) to 3 grains (180 mg).
>>
>> The reaction by most MDs during the switch from symptom based dosing
>> to
>> TSH based dosing was "OMG -- we were overdosing people". But the use
>> of TSH to determine adequacy of dose REMAINS AN UNTESTED THEORY.
>>
>> Before you can "prove" that TSH is useful in monitoring dose, and
>> further
>> that use of the ranges that are normal for people without thyroid
>> problems,
>> you must prove certain assumptions to be true. THese have never been
>> tested. Just to consider the big three:
>>
>> 1) Does TSH respond to one large dose the same way as it does to
>> continuous release by an intact thyroid gland -- No, what evidence
>> there is seems to prove this JUST AIN'T SO
>> 2) since both armour and synth-T4 have T3/T4 ratios different
>> from juman thyroid gland release, can we prove that TSH responds
>> to these differing ratios in the same way -- again, unproven, but
>> again what evidence exists seems to indicate: NO
>> 3) Since TSH varies throughout the day, as do serum levels
>> of T4 and T3, depending upon when thyroid dose was taken,
>> are variations in levels due to relative timing of test to dose-taking
>> properly accounted for -- NO -- NO MD DOES THIS
>> So the answer of whether the dose you are on is adequate,
>> too low or too high depends on when your blood was drawn?
>> NO! Bad test design, Bad test result interpretation!
>>
>> The use of TSH to monitor adequacy of dose is NOT
>> scientifically valid. Results based on this approach
>> are therefore NOT VALID.
>>
>> MDs who set thyroid dose using TSH are PRACTICING
>> VOODOO, not medicine.
>>
>> Disclaimer - my doctorate is not in medicine, but does
>> cover (electrical) measurement and testing
>>
>> DOSES: self 120 mg armour + 200 mcg T4 (four divided doses)
>> wife: 150 mg armour + 125 mcg T4 (seven doses)
>> son: 120 mg armour + 175 mcg T4 (four doses)
>
>

Dee,

Don't take anything I have written as saying you *won't* need more than
60mg. It is not easy to translate between pure thyroxine and Armour - I
was trying to demonstrate a possibility that 60mg *could be* enough - on
the other hand, you *could* need signficantly more.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>
From: Dee on 30 Jul 2008 07:59

"Rod" <polygonum(a)ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:6farjeFalc22U1(a)mid.individual.net...
> Dee wrote:
>> The amount you and your family members are taking are quite high, which
>> is why I went in with the preceived notion that I should also be higher
>> than 60 mgs. But, it seems to be the concensus that since I'm a small
>> adult, that I'm going to see how my tests go, and not go strictly by the
>> numbers (so I know not to do that; and my doctor knows not to do that),
>> but go by how I feel in accordance with those numbers.
>>
>> Dee
>>
>> <kgrhoads(a)alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
>> news:078e31ab-7103-4d49-ac8d-8aca4573b057(a)z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jul 29, 10:57 am, "Dee" <jlmacdoug...(a)eastlink.ca> wrote:
>>>> Hi, I went to my doctor yesterday to re-do my blood work requisition
>>>> (because there were more things I wanted to add). He was agreeable to
>>>> everything (he's good like that); but didn't think I need to retest my
>>>> anti-bodies since we've already determined they are high, which lead to
>>>> the
>>>> Hashimoto's diagnosis. Any comments about that? Should I retest that at
>>>> some
>>>> point, at least?
>>>>
>>>> Also, I told him I upped my dosage to 60 mgs of dessicated Thyroid.
>>>> And, he
>>>> wants me to stay there; in fact, he thinks that may be all I need, and
>>>> he
>>>> was alarmed when I said most people I 'talk' to (on the internet ; ) )
>>>> are
>>>> taking at least 100 mgs or more (as a maintenance dose).
>>>>
>>>> OK, that shocked me that he thinks 60 mgs is enough. It does not seem
>>>> like
>>>> enough according to all the info I've found; but he said it's equal to
>>>> about
>>>> 100 mcgs of Synthroid, and that someone my size (~95 lbs, ~5' 3.5")
>>>> doesn't
>>>> need much more. I told him I was going to dose by complete elimination
>>>> of
>>>> symptoms, body temp, and (how do they put that?) highest normal level
>>>> of
>>>> Free T3 no matter how low the TSH gets. He concurs with that. But only
>>>> 60
>>>> mgs? Does this sound right? He at least wants me to stay there until my
>>>> blood work in two weeks. If I don't 'crash' at some point on this
>>>> amount
>>>> until my blood work, I will; but if I feel I need to raise it... I just
>>>> might. By the way, my body temp is still only 36.6 or 36.7 C (97.9 F, I
>>>> think.), at most, after being on the medication for a month.
>>>>
>>>> Dee (confused and worried now)
>>> Prior to the mid 1970's switch to using TSH to set dose, the common
>>> maintenance
>>> doses for Armour were 2 grains (120 mg) to 3 grains (180 mg).
>>>
>>> The reaction by most MDs during the switch from symptom based dosing
>>> to
>>> TSH based dosing was "OMG -- we were overdosing people". But the use
>>> of TSH to determine adequacy of dose REMAINS AN UNTESTED THEORY.
>>>
>>> Before you can "prove" that TSH is useful in monitoring dose, and
>>> further
>>> that use of the ranges that are normal for people without thyroid
>>> problems,
>>> you must prove certain assumptions to be true. THese have never been
>>> tested. Just to consider the big three:
>>>
>>> 1) Does TSH respond to one large dose the same way as it does to
>>> continuous release by an intact thyroid gland -- No, what evidence
>>> there is seems to prove this JUST AIN'T SO
>>> 2) since both armour and synth-T4 have T3/T4 ratios different
>>> from juman thyroid gland release, can we prove that TSH responds
>>> to these differing ratios in the same way -- again, unproven, but
>>> again what evidence exists seems to indicate: NO
>>> 3) Since TSH varies throughout the day, as do serum levels
>>> of T4 and T3, depending upon when thyroid dose was taken,
>>> are variations in levels due to relative timing of test to dose-taking
>>> properly accounted for -- NO -- NO MD DOES THIS
>>> So the answer of whether the dose you are on is adequate,
>>> too low or too high depends on when your blood was drawn?
>>> NO! Bad test design, Bad test result interpretation!
>>>
>>> The use of TSH to monitor adequacy of dose is NOT
>>> scientifically valid. Results based on this approach
>>> are therefore NOT VALID.
>>>
>>> MDs who set thyroid dose using TSH are PRACTICING
>>> VOODOO, not medicine.
>>>
>>> Disclaimer - my doctorate is not in medicine, but does
>>> cover (electrical) measurement and testing
>>>
>>> DOSES: self 120 mg armour + 200 mcg T4 (four divided doses)
>>> wife: 150 mg armour + 125 mcg T4 (seven doses)
>>> son: 120 mg armour + 175 mcg T4 (four doses)
>>
>>
>
> Dee,
>
> Don't take anything I have written as saying you *won't* need more than
> 60mg. It is not easy to translate between pure thyroxine and Armour - I
> was trying to demonstrate a possibility that 60mg *could be* enough - on
> the other hand, you *could* need signficantly more.
>
> --
> Rod

Rod, I fully understand. : ) I won't strictly adhere to anyone's advice -
I'll go by how I'm feeling, along with the bloodwork, and take it from
there.

Dee
>
> Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
> onset.
> Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
> <www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>


From: Elizabeth on 30 Jul 2008 09:36
Dee, I have noticed that too. I am on the waiting list for a new doc who
prescribes Armour and T3 as well as T4. I am eager to hear what she says.
Also, I've just finished reading The Thyroid Solution by Arem, and in it is
a discussion of how fatigue and mood are sometimes the last remaining issues
after T4 replacement. They recommend adding some T3 to resolve the two
problems.

Elizabeth

"Dee" <jlmacdougall(a)eastlink.ca> wrote in message
news:RtWjk.2853$nu6.2841(a)edtnps83...
> Elizabeth, I'm under the impression that your Free T3 is supposed to be in
> the upper range.
>
> Dee
>
> "Elizabeth" <esnively(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:od-dnX3lU54RLRLVnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d(a)earthlink.com...
>> Kevin,
>>
>> Just wondering, do you or your family have any problem with insomnia on
>> those doses? I have recently started to feel more awake than I have for
>> probably over a year. Sometimes this causes a delay in falling asleep --
>> usually if I'm not asleep within an hour, I get up and do something else
>> for a while. I don't have the anxiety that I once had.
>>
>> I have no idea if I'm at the right dose or not. My only remaining
>> symptoms are fatigue and a mildly depressed mood, but they seem to abate
>> once in a while now, usually coming and going together. I'm only on 62.5
>> mcg Synthroid, which seems a very small dose but fT4 is now well over
>> mid-range. My fT3 is still low- to mid-range though.
>>
>> Elizabeth
>>
>> <kgrhoads(a)alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
>> news:078e31ab-7103-4d49-ac8d-8aca4573b057(a)z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jul 29, 10:57 am, "Dee" <jlmacdoug...(a)eastlink.ca> wrote:
>>>> Hi, I went to my doctor yesterday to re-do my blood work requisition
>>>> (because there were more things I wanted to add). He was agreeable to
>>>> everything (he's good like that); but didn't think I need to retest my
>>>> anti-bodies since we've already determined they are high, which lead to
>>>> the
>>>> Hashimoto's diagnosis. Any comments about that? Should I retest that at
>>>> some
>>>> point, at least?
>>>>
>>>> Also, I told him I upped my dosage to 60 mgs of dessicated Thyroid.
>>>> And, he
>>>> wants me to stay there; in fact, he thinks that may be all I need, and
>>>> he
>>>> was alarmed when I said most people I 'talk' to (on the internet ; ) )
>>>> are
>>>> taking at least 100 mgs or more (as a maintenance dose).
>>>>
>>>> OK, that shocked me that he thinks 60 mgs is enough. It does not seem
>>>> like
>>>> enough according to all the info I've found; but he said it's equal to
>>>> about
>>>> 100 mcgs of Synthroid, and that someone my size (~95 lbs, ~5' 3.5")
>>>> doesn't
>>>> need much more. I told him I was going to dose by complete elimination
>>>> of
>>>> symptoms, body temp, and (how do they put that?) highest normal level
>>>> of
>>>> Free T3 no matter how low the TSH gets. He concurs with that. But only
>>>> 60
>>>> mgs? Does this sound right? He at least wants me to stay there until my
>>>> blood work in two weeks. If I don't 'crash' at some point on this
>>>> amount
>>>> until my blood work, I will; but if I feel I need to raise it... I just
>>>> might. By the way, my body temp is still only 36.6 or 36.7 C (97.9 F, I
>>>> think.), at most, after being on the medication for a month.
>>>>
>>>> Dee (confused and worried now)
>>>
>>> Prior to the mid 1970's switch to using TSH to set dose, the common
>>> maintenance
>>> doses for Armour were 2 grains (120 mg) to 3 grains (180 mg).
>>>
>>> The reaction by most MDs during the switch from symptom based dosing
>>> to
>>> TSH based dosing was "OMG -- we were overdosing people". But the use
>>> of TSH to determine adequacy of dose REMAINS AN UNTESTED THEORY.
>>>
>>> Before you can "prove" that TSH is useful in monitoring dose, and
>>> further
>>> that use of the ranges that are normal for people without thyroid
>>> problems,
>>> you must prove certain assumptions to be true. THese have never been
>>> tested. Just to consider the big three:
>>>
>>> 1) Does TSH respond to one large dose the same way as it does to
>>> continuous release by an intact thyroid gland -- No, what evidence
>>> there is seems to prove this JUST AIN'T SO
>>> 2) since both armour and synth-T4 have T3/T4 ratios different
>>> from juman thyroid gland release, can we prove that TSH responds
>>> to these differing ratios in the same way -- again, unproven, but
>>> again what evidence exists seems to indicate: NO
>>> 3) Since TSH varies throughout the day, as do serum levels
>>> of T4 and T3, depending upon when thyroid dose was taken,
>>> are variations in levels due to relative timing of test to dose-taking
>>> properly accounted for -- NO -- NO MD DOES THIS
>>> So the answer of whether the dose you are on is adequate,
>>> too low or too high depends on when your blood was drawn?
>>> NO! Bad test design, Bad test result interpretation!
>>>
>>> The use of TSH to monitor adequacy of dose is NOT
>>> scientifically valid. Results based on this approach
>>> are therefore NOT VALID.
>>>
>>> MDs who set thyroid dose using TSH are PRACTICING
>>> VOODOO, not medicine.
>>>
>>> Disclaimer - my doctorate is not in medicine, but does
>>> cover (electrical) measurement and testing
>>>
>>> DOSES: self 120 mg armour + 200 mcg T4 (four divided doses)
>>> wife: 150 mg armour + 125 mcg T4 (seven doses)
>>> son: 120 mg armour + 175 mcg T4 (four doses)
>>
>>
>
>


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