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From: Dee on 29 Jul 2008 12:18
"district" <jtdistrict(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dffa2991-6d17-4e70-9a03-d0bb6c753f53(a)d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>Dee

>I guess the most important question is - How do you feel right now?
>Are you feeling worse or just afraid you're going to crash?

Hi Jen, I'm probably just afraid that I'm going to crash, like I did before
I increased to 60 mgs. I'm not really feeling worse; but I'm not feeling
like I can leap tall buildings, either. : ) I'm feeling sort of on the down
swing like heading for that crash that I had. Today is not a great day for
me; lots of brain heaviness and 'fog'. The anxiety is kind of high, too. So,
those are things I want to medication to erase - lol. But, (*taps fingers*)
it's not happening yet. I know I'm being impatient, though.

That's probably why I felt a little panicky when my doctor said that's
probably the limit (60 mgs) for me. I'm thinking; seriously (gasp)? But my
symptoms aren't gone. But I do know it's only been 4 weeks - which he
chuckled about, and told me to be patient.

>I'm a little confused about Armour dosing myself. I think that the
>conversion is a lot less straightforward than it's made out to be. I
>was on 75 mcgs of Synthroid before I switched over and now I'm >120 mgs
>of Armour, which is theoretically equivalent to 200 mcg of Synthroid.
>That just doesn't make sense to me. Just so you know, I currently
>weigh 152 (although I was up to 166 in recent months! I've lost 10
>pounds in the past 2 months on Armour...!) and I'm pretty sure my
>Thyroid is still somewhat alive.....

I can see why you are confused, too; because you seem to be taking more
hormone being on the Armor than you did when you were taking the synthetic
hormone. Maybe you just didn't reach your maintenance point yet with the
synthetic, so when you switched over to Armor you needed to increase your
dose afterwards.

>It sounds like your Doctor is more than willing to work with you on
>this... and I wouldn't get worried unless you are really feeling bad
>and he's really unwilling to increase the dose.

You're right.

>The adrenal advice is
>really good too - I forget - have you done the saliva test?

No, I haven't had the adrenal saliva test yet... Have you had it done? Do
you know if you have adrenal problems?

>Hang in there! You have a better doc than most!

Thanks. Yes, he is a good doctor. : )

-Jen

On Jul 29, 6:57 am, "Dee" wrote:
> Hi, I went to my doctor yesterday to re-do my blood work requisition
> (because there were more things I wanted to add). He was agreeable to
> everything (he's good like that); but didn't think I need to retest my
> anti-bodies since we've already determined they are high, which lead to
> the
> Hashimoto's diagnosis. Any comments about that? Should I retest that at
> some
> point, at least?
>
> Also, I told him I upped my dosage to 60 mgs of dessicated Thyroid. And,
> he
> wants me to stay there; in fact, he thinks that may be all I need, and he
> was alarmed when I said most people I 'talk' to (on the internet ; ) ) are
> taking at least 100 mgs or more (as a maintenance dose).
>
> OK, that shocked me that he thinks 60 mgs is enough. It does not seem like
> enough according to all the info I've found; but he said it's equal to
> about
> 100 mcgs of Synthroid, and that someone my size (~95 lbs, ~5' 3.5")
> doesn't
> need much more. I told him I was going to dose by complete elimination of
> symptoms, body temp, and (how do they put that?) highest normal level of
> Free T3 no matter how low the TSH gets. He concurs with that. But only 60
> mgs? Does this sound right? He at least wants me to stay there until my
> blood work in two weeks. If I don't 'crash' at some point on this amount
> until my blood work, I will; but if I feel I need to raise it... I just
> might. By the way, my body temp is still only 36.6 or 36.7 C (97.9 F, I
> think.), at most, after being on the medication for a month.
>
> Dee (confused and worried now)


From: kgrhoads on 29 Jul 2008 16:54
On Jul 29, 10:57 am, "Dee" <jlmacdoug...(a)eastlink.ca> wrote:
> Hi, I went to my doctor yesterday to re-do my blood work requisition
> (because there were more things I wanted to add). He was agreeable to
> everything (he's good like that); but didn't think I need to retest my
> anti-bodies since we've already determined they are high, which lead to the
> Hashimoto's diagnosis. Any comments about that? Should I retest that at some
> point, at least?
>
> Also, I told him I upped my dosage to 60 mgs of dessicated Thyroid. And, he
> wants me to stay there; in fact, he thinks that may be all I need, and he
> was alarmed when I said most people I 'talk' to (on the internet ; ) ) are
> taking at least 100 mgs or more (as a maintenance dose).
>
> OK, that shocked me that he thinks 60 mgs is enough. It does not seem like
> enough according to all the info I've found; but he said it's equal to about
> 100 mcgs of Synthroid, and that someone my size (~95 lbs, ~5' 3.5") doesn't
> need much more. I told him I was going to dose by complete elimination of
> symptoms, body temp, and (how do they put that?) highest normal level of
> Free T3 no matter how low the TSH gets. He concurs with that. But only 60
> mgs? Does this sound right? He at least wants me to stay there until my
> blood work in two weeks. If I don't 'crash' at some point on this amount
> until my blood work, I will; but if I feel I need to raise it... I just
> might. By the way, my body temp is still only 36.6 or 36.7 C (97.9 F, I
> think.), at most, after being on the medication for a month.
>
> Dee (confused and worried now)

Prior to the mid 1970's switch to using TSH to set dose, the common
maintenance
doses for Armour were 2 grains (120 mg) to 3 grains (180 mg).

The reaction by most MDs during the switch from symptom based dosing
to
TSH based dosing was "OMG -- we were overdosing people". But the use
of TSH to determine adequacy of dose REMAINS AN UNTESTED THEORY.

Before you can "prove" that TSH is useful in monitoring dose, and
further
that use of the ranges that are normal for people without thyroid
problems,
you must prove certain assumptions to be true. THese have never been
tested. Just to consider the big three:

1) Does TSH respond to one large dose the same way as it does to
continuous release by an intact thyroid gland -- No, what evidence
there is seems to prove this JUST AIN'T SO
2) since both armour and synth-T4 have T3/T4 ratios different
from juman thyroid gland release, can we prove that TSH responds
to these differing ratios in the same way -- again, unproven, but
again what evidence exists seems to indicate: NO
3) Since TSH varies throughout the day, as do serum levels
of T4 and T3, depending upon when thyroid dose was taken,
are variations in levels due to relative timing of test to dose-taking
properly accounted for -- NO -- NO MD DOES THIS
So the answer of whether the dose you are on is adequate,
too low or too high depends on when your blood was drawn?
NO! Bad test design, Bad test result interpretation!

The use of TSH to monitor adequacy of dose is NOT
scientifically valid. Results based on this approach
are therefore NOT VALID.

MDs who set thyroid dose using TSH are PRACTICING
VOODOO, not medicine.

Disclaimer - my doctorate is not in medicine, but does
cover (electrical) measurement and testing

DOSES: self 120 mg armour + 200 mcg T4 (four divided doses)
wife: 150 mg armour + 125 mcg T4 (seven doses)
son: 120 mg armour + 175 mcg T4 (four doses)
From: Elizabeth on 29 Jul 2008 20:07
Kevin,

Just wondering, do you or your family have any problem with insomnia on
those doses? I have recently started to feel more awake than I have for
probably over a year. Sometimes this causes a delay in falling asleep --
usually if I'm not asleep within an hour, I get up and do something else for
a while. I don't have the anxiety that I once had.

I have no idea if I'm at the right dose or not. My only remaining symptoms
are fatigue and a mildly depressed mood, but they seem to abate once in a
while now, usually coming and going together. I'm only on 62.5 mcg
Synthroid, which seems a very small dose but fT4 is now well over mid-range.
My fT3 is still low- to mid-range though.

Elizabeth

<kgrhoads(a)alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:078e31ab-7103-4d49-ac8d-8aca4573b057(a)z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 29, 10:57 am, "Dee" <jlmacdoug...(a)eastlink.ca> wrote:
>> Hi, I went to my doctor yesterday to re-do my blood work requisition
>> (because there were more things I wanted to add). He was agreeable to
>> everything (he's good like that); but didn't think I need to retest my
>> anti-bodies since we've already determined they are high, which lead to
>> the
>> Hashimoto's diagnosis. Any comments about that? Should I retest that at
>> some
>> point, at least?
>>
>> Also, I told him I upped my dosage to 60 mgs of dessicated Thyroid. And,
>> he
>> wants me to stay there; in fact, he thinks that may be all I need, and he
>> was alarmed when I said most people I 'talk' to (on the internet ; ) )
>> are
>> taking at least 100 mgs or more (as a maintenance dose).
>>
>> OK, that shocked me that he thinks 60 mgs is enough. It does not seem
>> like
>> enough according to all the info I've found; but he said it's equal to
>> about
>> 100 mcgs of Synthroid, and that someone my size (~95 lbs, ~5' 3.5")
>> doesn't
>> need much more. I told him I was going to dose by complete elimination of
>> symptoms, body temp, and (how do they put that?) highest normal level of
>> Free T3 no matter how low the TSH gets. He concurs with that. But only 60
>> mgs? Does this sound right? He at least wants me to stay there until my
>> blood work in two weeks. If I don't 'crash' at some point on this amount
>> until my blood work, I will; but if I feel I need to raise it... I just
>> might. By the way, my body temp is still only 36.6 or 36.7 C (97.9 F, I
>> think.), at most, after being on the medication for a month.
>>
>> Dee (confused and worried now)
>
> Prior to the mid 1970's switch to using TSH to set dose, the common
> maintenance
> doses for Armour were 2 grains (120 mg) to 3 grains (180 mg).
>
> The reaction by most MDs during the switch from symptom based dosing
> to
> TSH based dosing was "OMG -- we were overdosing people". But the use
> of TSH to determine adequacy of dose REMAINS AN UNTESTED THEORY.
>
> Before you can "prove" that TSH is useful in monitoring dose, and
> further
> that use of the ranges that are normal for people without thyroid
> problems,
> you must prove certain assumptions to be true. THese have never been
> tested. Just to consider the big three:
>
> 1) Does TSH respond to one large dose the same way as it does to
> continuous release by an intact thyroid gland -- No, what evidence
> there is seems to prove this JUST AIN'T SO
> 2) since both armour and synth-T4 have T3/T4 ratios different
> from juman thyroid gland release, can we prove that TSH responds
> to these differing ratios in the same way -- again, unproven, but
> again what evidence exists seems to indicate: NO
> 3) Since TSH varies throughout the day, as do serum levels
> of T4 and T3, depending upon when thyroid dose was taken,
> are variations in levels due to relative timing of test to dose-taking
> properly accounted for -- NO -- NO MD DOES THIS
> So the answer of whether the dose you are on is adequate,
> too low or too high depends on when your blood was drawn?
> NO! Bad test design, Bad test result interpretation!
>
> The use of TSH to monitor adequacy of dose is NOT
> scientifically valid. Results based on this approach
> are therefore NOT VALID.
>
> MDs who set thyroid dose using TSH are PRACTICING
> VOODOO, not medicine.
>
> Disclaimer - my doctorate is not in medicine, but does
> cover (electrical) measurement and testing
>
> DOSES: self 120 mg armour + 200 mcg T4 (four divided doses)
> wife: 150 mg armour + 125 mcg T4 (seven doses)
> son: 120 mg armour + 175 mcg T4 (four doses)


From: Herman Family on 29 Jul 2008 22:25

"Dee" <jlmacdougall(a)eastlink.ca> wrote in message
news:LICjk.2606$nu6.761(a)edtnps83...
> Hi, I went to my doctor yesterday to re-do my blood work
> requisition (because there were more things I wanted to
> add). He was agreeable to everything (he's good like
> that); but didn't think I need to retest my anti-bodies
> since we've already determined they are high, which lead
> to the Hashimoto's diagnosis. Any comments about that?
> Should I retest that at some point, at least?
>
> Also, I told him I upped my dosage to 60 mgs of dessicated
> Thyroid. And, he wants me to stay there; in fact, he
> thinks that may be all I need, and he was alarmed when I
> said most people I 'talk' to (on the internet ; ) ) are
> taking at least 100 mgs or more (as a maintenance dose).
>
> OK, that shocked me that he thinks 60 mgs is enough. It
> does not seem like enough according to all the info I've
> found; but he said it's equal to about 100 mcgs of
> Synthroid, and that someone my size (~95 lbs, ~5' 3.5")
> doesn't need much more. I told him I was going to dose by
> complete elimination of symptoms, body temp, and (how do
> they put that?) highest normal level of Free T3 no matter
> how low the TSH gets. He concurs with that. But only 60
> mgs? Does this sound right? He at least wants me to stay
> there until my blood work in two weeks. If I don't 'crash'
> at some point on this amount until my blood work, I will;
> but if I feel I need to raise it... I just might. By the
> way, my body temp is still only 36.6 or 36.7 C (97.9 F, I
> think.), at most, after being on the medication for a
> month.
>
> Dee (confused and worried now)
>
Dee,

The doctor is right, or at least not far from wrong.
Many of us are a tad larger than you and probably require a
little more. You may notice that the dosage needs some
adjustment over time. How you feel is generally not a great
way to dose when you are close to the right level. Too much
and too little share symptoms, and the speed at which you
will feel better or worse is very deceptive. For now, you
apparently are on the right dose. Stay at this level for
at least 6 weeks, then retest to see where you are. If the
numbers aren't good, and how you feel correlates with them,
make a dosage adjustment.

As far as antibodies go, it really isn't necessary to
test for them a second time. You won't change anything
based on the test results and it won't change the diagnosis,
or the prognosis.

Michael


From: Dee on 30 Jul 2008 05:24
The amount you and your family members are taking are quite high, which is
why I went in with the preceived notion that I should also be higher than 60
mgs. But, it seems to be the concensus that since I'm a small adult, that
I'm going to see how my tests go, and not go strictly by the numbers (so I
know not to do that; and my doctor knows not to do that), but go by how I
feel in accordance with those numbers.

Dee

<kgrhoads(a)alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:078e31ab-7103-4d49-ac8d-8aca4573b057(a)z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 29, 10:57 am, "Dee" <jlmacdoug...(a)eastlink.ca> wrote:
>> Hi, I went to my doctor yesterday to re-do my blood work requisition
>> (because there were more things I wanted to add). He was agreeable to
>> everything (he's good like that); but didn't think I need to retest my
>> anti-bodies since we've already determined they are high, which lead to
>> the
>> Hashimoto's diagnosis. Any comments about that? Should I retest that at
>> some
>> point, at least?
>>
>> Also, I told him I upped my dosage to 60 mgs of dessicated Thyroid. And,
>> he
>> wants me to stay there; in fact, he thinks that may be all I need, and he
>> was alarmed when I said most people I 'talk' to (on the internet ; ) )
>> are
>> taking at least 100 mgs or more (as a maintenance dose).
>>
>> OK, that shocked me that he thinks 60 mgs is enough. It does not seem
>> like
>> enough according to all the info I've found; but he said it's equal to
>> about
>> 100 mcgs of Synthroid, and that someone my size (~95 lbs, ~5' 3.5")
>> doesn't
>> need much more. I told him I was going to dose by complete elimination of
>> symptoms, body temp, and (how do they put that?) highest normal level of
>> Free T3 no matter how low the TSH gets. He concurs with that. But only 60
>> mgs? Does this sound right? He at least wants me to stay there until my
>> blood work in two weeks. If I don't 'crash' at some point on this amount
>> until my blood work, I will; but if I feel I need to raise it... I just
>> might. By the way, my body temp is still only 36.6 or 36.7 C (97.9 F, I
>> think.), at most, after being on the medication for a month.
>>
>> Dee (confused and worried now)
>
> Prior to the mid 1970's switch to using TSH to set dose, the common
> maintenance
> doses for Armour were 2 grains (120 mg) to 3 grains (180 mg).
>
> The reaction by most MDs during the switch from symptom based dosing
> to
> TSH based dosing was "OMG -- we were overdosing people". But the use
> of TSH to determine adequacy of dose REMAINS AN UNTESTED THEORY.
>
> Before you can "prove" that TSH is useful in monitoring dose, and
> further
> that use of the ranges that are normal for people without thyroid
> problems,
> you must prove certain assumptions to be true. THese have never been
> tested. Just to consider the big three:
>
> 1) Does TSH respond to one large dose the same way as it does to
> continuous release by an intact thyroid gland -- No, what evidence
> there is seems to prove this JUST AIN'T SO
> 2) since both armour and synth-T4 have T3/T4 ratios different
> from juman thyroid gland release, can we prove that TSH responds
> to these differing ratios in the same way -- again, unproven, but
> again what evidence exists seems to indicate: NO
> 3) Since TSH varies throughout the day, as do serum levels
> of T4 and T3, depending upon when thyroid dose was taken,
> are variations in levels due to relative timing of test to dose-taking
> properly accounted for -- NO -- NO MD DOES THIS
> So the answer of whether the dose you are on is adequate,
> too low or too high depends on when your blood was drawn?
> NO! Bad test design, Bad test result interpretation!
>
> The use of TSH to monitor adequacy of dose is NOT
> scientifically valid. Results based on this approach
> are therefore NOT VALID.
>
> MDs who set thyroid dose using TSH are PRACTICING
> VOODOO, not medicine.
>
> Disclaimer - my doctorate is not in medicine, but does
> cover (electrical) measurement and testing
>
> DOSES: self 120 mg armour + 200 mcg T4 (four divided doses)
> wife: 150 mg armour + 125 mcg T4 (seven doses)
> son: 120 mg armour + 175 mcg T4 (four doses)


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