How About A Side Of Hypocrisy
in [Vegetarian]
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From: SystemX on 10 Aug 2008 06:44 Dutch wrote: > SystemX wrote: >> Dutch wrote: >>> SystemX wrote: >>>> Dutch wrote: >>>>> Rudy Canoza wrote: >>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>>> Dutch wrote: >>>>>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Dutch wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Vegans do consume dairy. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Even by their own lax standards, vegans cannot consume dairy >>>>>>>>>>> and still legitimately call themselves vegans. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I mad e a mistook. - A bad one - I missed the important word >>>>>>>>>> 'not'. I guess you worked that out for yourself, but hey, why >>>>>>>>>> not score a point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> BTW - I'm self identifying myself as God. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That was redundant. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just making a point that; self identification is not reliable >>>>>>>>>> identification: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You mean you don't identify yourself as God? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Including animals? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is related to your statement about "we are all God". >>>>>> >>>>>> I think it was clear Dutch was restricting "we" to humans. >>>>> >>>>> In the way I used the term I meant everything, not only humans, not >>>>> only animals and plants, everything. >>>>> >>>>> In this sense God is the organizing force in all matter and life, >>>>> humans being the most ambitious manifestation of that force. >>>> >>>> There is no 'force'. >>> >>> No force? That is hardly a plausible response. At the very least >>> there are many forces operating independently. There's a force in you >>> that gets you up in the morning. >> >> No; there is no 'organising force'. There is no 'force' that gets me >> up in the morning. (Apart from the PHYSICAL one that changes a body >> from a state of rest to one of motion). >> >>> >>>> It is entirely evolutionary. >>> >>> What is "it"? >> >> "life" > > What is life? Show me. Isn't it a force? Look in a mirror that is 'life'. No it's not an all encompassing "organising force" that you originally mentioned. > >>> I didn't say anything about development of species. >> >>> Question, why does life bother to occur? >> >> It doesn't 'bother' it just occurs. > > Why? There is no evidence of a 'bothering' 'organising force'. > >>> Why does lichen live on high mountain ridges where it is -100 degrees >>> with almost no air? Why do animals struggle to live in Antarctic >>> winter? Why do flowers bloom? >> >> Try Wikipedia. > > There will be metaphysical hypotheses that you would reject. Of course I will reject some *hypotheses*. You seem to have a view of some driving / organising force that has no basis in *fact*. > >> >>> Seems like a lot of trouble just to die a short time later. What is >>> driving all this frenetic activity? Seems to me like there is some >>> kind of driving force. >> >> You are mistaken, > > How can you be so certain? There is NO evidence of a 'driving force' NONE. > > > possibly misled by those around you. > > Where did you get the notions "atheism" and "agnosticism"? Was it not > "those around you"? I base my thoughts on facts, not some wishy washy notion of 'driving / organising forces' that equate to some form of God. What percentage of your friends and relations have belief in God? > >
From: Dutch on 10 Aug 2008 16:26 SystemX wrote: > Dutch wrote: >> SystemX wrote: >>> Dutch wrote: >>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>> Dutch wrote: >>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>>> Dutch wrote: >>>>>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Dutch wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Vegans do consume dairy. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Even by their own lax standards, vegans cannot consume dairy >>>>>>>>>>> and still legitimately call themselves vegans. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I mad e a mistook. - A bad one - I missed the important word >>>>>>>>>> 'not'. I guess you worked that out for yourself, but hey, why >>>>>>>>>> not score a point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> BTW - I'm self identifying myself as God. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That was redundant. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just making a point that; self identification is not reliable >>>>>>>>>> identification: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You mean you don't identify yourself as God? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Including animals? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is related to your statement about "we are all God". >>>>>> >>>>>> I figured that. Every plant, animal, even things that seem inert >>>>>> to us are manifestations of a universal force. A rock is 99% empty >>>>>> space, the other 1% is comprised of spinning particles, miniature >>>>>> galaxies. Its apparent solid form is simply a limitation of our >>>>>> powers of perception. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps your understanding of animals is limited by your power of >>>>> perception. >>>> >>>> Of course, we only know the world through the filters of our >>>> perception. How could it be otherwise? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I get the feeling you're confused, perhaps indoctrinated. >>>> >>>> Ahh, out come the daggers, I must have hit a nerve. >>> >>> No. You seem confused, >> >> When contemplating the universe perhaps appearing confused is a sign >> of wisdom. One of the new and exciting principles of physics is >> uncertainty. >> >>> and seem to be balancing a view between their being a God and not. >> >> I think I stated my position quite clearly. I reject "religion" per >> se, along with "worship" and most other artifacts of conventional >> religion. But there is a force underlying everything, far more >> powerful than nuclear energy, and we are each manifestations of that >> force. The idea that nothing we can't see does not exist is simply >> naive. Quantum physics is exploring whole new realms of reality. > > You now seem to be sifting your position from a God like "organising > force" to a physical one. It's both and more. It is an organized, intelligent, dynamic physical energy, just as we see manifested in each living thing. I can see you struggling to fit what I am saying into your existing paradigms. That's natural. I am not attempting to convince you of anything or make you "believe in" anything. I am simply trying to convey my understanding of the nature of reality. You said, "We're just animals on a planet". I call that glib, we're much more than that. First of all, we have the ability to be aware of ourselves in a way that no other animal has. This ability also allows us to contemplate reality and the universe itself. That is "all" I am attempting to do. You can go along for the ride or you can stay home. >>>> Perhaps your "self-indoctrination" as an agnostic-atheist is causing >>>> internal distress? >>> >>> Not really. I'm quite happy with my view. I'm not sitting on a fence. >> >> "I seem to hover between being an agnostic and an atheist." > > Both are clearly on one side of the 'God fence'. Actually they are not. An agnostic by definition has no opinion on "God", it's an open position. An atheist has a definite belief that there is no God, or if you prefer, a firm absence of God belief. Atheists can get testy about being defined. My point was that while you are accusing me of sitting on some fence, in fact you have said explicitly that you yourself are hovering between two very different "God belief" positions. The fact is, ambivalence (confusion) about things beyond our ability to prove or know is a sign of wisdom, open-mindedness. But you have misread my comments, I'm not talking about "God belief", or any kind of belief. I am attempting to put into words my perception of the universe. Fundamental in that perception is that there is a force that permeates all things, call it life if you like. One can feel that force in oneself by being still and focusing on the heat of the solar plexus. The existence of this force has been warped into all forms of bizarre religious beliefs.
From: Dutch on 10 Aug 2008 17:13 SystemX wrote: > Dutch wrote: >> SystemX wrote: >>> Dutch wrote: >>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>> Dutch wrote: >>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>> Dutch wrote: >>>>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>>>> Dutch wrote: >>>>>>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Vegans do consume dairy. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Even by their own lax standards, vegans cannot consume dairy >>>>>>>>>> and still legitimately call themselves vegans. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I mad e a mistook. - A bad one - I missed the important word >>>>>>>>> 'not'. I guess you worked that out for yourself, but hey, why >>>>>>>>> not score a point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> BTW - I'm self identifying myself as God. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That was redundant. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just making a point that; self identification is not reliable >>>>>>>>> identification: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You mean you don't identify yourself as God? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Including animals? >>>>>> >>>>>> All things, flowers, animals. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> You ought to, we are all God. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't believe in God. I seem to hover between being an agnostic >>>>>>> and an atheist. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't "believe in God" in the conventional sense either, but, >>>>>> how to put it.. there is a powerful force in the universe >>>>>> intelligent beyond all comprehension constantly manifesting itself >>>>>> in a multitude of ways, the most advanced of these being the >>>>>> self-aware human being. That force is living in each of us, it is >>>>>> in a very basic sense "who we are". I believe this is what is >>>>>> behind the spiritual teachings and the original meaning of God. >>>>> >>>>> Stop dreaming. >>>>> >>>>> We are nothing but animals on a planet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty blas� perspective. Whatever floats your boat though.. >>> >>> Nothing blas� about fact. >>> >>> >> >> Facts aren't blas�, perspectives can be. > > It is a fact that "We are nothing but animals on a planet". What > evidence would lead you to come to a different perspective? I never said we weren't animals on a planet, you're setting up a strawman. But we are, as humans, more than "just" animals. > > What evidence do you have for this wishy washy notion of God as an > "organising force"? I would prefer to avoid the word "God", it carries a lot a negative baggage, like religion and all that entails. But evidence of an "organizing force"? Just take a look around, everything is organized in patterns. The physical world operates according to strict laws, the structure of everything, every living thing, the way they live, is highly organized. We reflect this in our behaviour, our social structures, governments, we tend to organize everything we touch. Look at a leaf under a microscope, where is the evidence to support the view that things are random?
From: Dutch on 10 Aug 2008 17:32
SystemX wrote: > Dutch wrote: >> SystemX wrote: >>> Dutch wrote: >>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>> Dutch wrote: >>>>>> Rudy Canoza wrote: >>>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>>>> Dutch wrote: >>>>>>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Dutch wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> SystemX wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Vegans do consume dairy. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Even by their own lax standards, vegans cannot consume dairy >>>>>>>>>>>> and still legitimately call themselves vegans. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I mad e a mistook. - A bad one - I missed the important word >>>>>>>>>>> 'not'. I guess you worked that out for yourself, but hey, why >>>>>>>>>>> not score a point. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BTW - I'm self identifying myself as God. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> That was redundant. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just making a point that; self identification is not reliable >>>>>>>>>>> identification: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You mean you don't identify yourself as God? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Including animals? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is related to your statement about "we are all God". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think it was clear Dutch was restricting "we" to humans. >>>>>> >>>>>> In the way I used the term I meant everything, not only humans, >>>>>> not only animals and plants, everything. >>>>>> >>>>>> In this sense God is the organizing force in all matter and life, >>>>>> humans being the most ambitious manifestation of that force. >>>>> >>>>> There is no 'force'. >>>> >>>> No force? That is hardly a plausible response. At the very least >>>> there are many forces operating independently. There's a force in >>>> you that gets you up in the morning. >>> >>> No; there is no 'organising force'. There is no 'force' that gets me >>> up in the morning. (Apart from the PHYSICAL one that changes a body >>> from a state of rest to one of motion). >>> >>>> >>>>> It is entirely evolutionary. >>>> >>>> What is "it"? >>> >>> "life" >> >> What is life? Show me. Isn't it a force? > > Look in a mirror that is 'life'. That's not life itself, its a reflection of a physical body, passing into your visual cortex and processed by the brain. It would much have the same appearance if it were a life-like mannequin. > No it's not an all encompassing > "organising force" that you originally mentioned. That is your view, but you aren't defending it. I think my body is highly organized. It is currently engaged in healing a wound on my hand, digesting food, planning for visitors, while performing about one million other daily tasks. Do you think that does not take organization? Where does this organizing ability come from? Did it occur randomly? Possibly, but I am more convinced that some inherent force in nature itself plays a role. > >> >>>> I didn't say anything about development of species. >>> >>>> Question, why does life bother to occur? >>> >>> It doesn't 'bother' it just occurs. >> >> Why? > > There is no evidence of a 'bothering' 'organising force'. The evidence is everywhere, unless everything, every molecule, every animal and thing just happens to be organized by random chance. >>>> Why does lichen live on high mountain ridges where it is -100 >>>> degrees with almost no air? Why do animals struggle to live in >>>> Antarctic winter? Why do flowers bloom? >>> >>> Try Wikipedia. >> >> There will be metaphysical hypotheses that you would reject. > > Of course I will reject some *hypotheses*. You seem to have a view of > some driving / organising force that has no basis in *fact*. Yes it does, the basis is observable reality. Your view, apparently, that everything is random, has no basis in observable reality. At the sub-atomic level everything is fundamentally highly structured, while at the same time random accidents happen constantly. >>>> Seems like a lot of trouble just to die a short time later. What is >>>> driving all this frenetic activity? Seems to me like there is some >>>> kind of driving force. >>> >>> You are mistaken, >> >> How can you be so certain? > > There is NO evidence of a 'driving force' NONE. Yes, there is, PLENTY. >> > possibly misled by those around you. >> >> Where did you get the notions "atheism" and "agnosticism"? Was it not >> "those around you"? > > I base my thoughts on facts, not some wishy washy notion of 'driving / > organising forces' that equate to some form of God. No you don't, you base your thoughts on the sacred cow of the 20th century, the "New Science". It was considered enlightenment in that view to reject anything that can't be physically seen or measured. That paradigm has fallen out of favor with physicists. > What percentage of your friends and relations have belief in God? I don't ask them, I think some go to church, but what exactly they believe I don't know. You are hung up on the "G word". I'm not talking about believing in "a God", my perspective is to understand the nature of reality at a deeper level than you are attempting. As I said, I am not interested in *convincing* you to "believe" anything. If what I am saying does not make sense to you, fine, it is what it is. I would be happy to leave it at that. |