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From: JanD on 12 Dec 2005 23:09
"Rich" <joshew(a)hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
> "alexr" <rojkov(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>> I'd like to know what field your competence LIES in.
> For your information, among Cathy's many competencies that she is too
What a load of BS.
She is Rosalind Darfield
One of the Ratbags Darlings.
Rich Shewmaker doesn't care if Perter Bowditch lies to me, this newsgroup,
his mother, or the pope.
He does nothing but lie, insult and belittle.
From: Mark on 12 Dec 2005 23:30
> I'd like to know what field your competence LIES in.
I think al-Bayati's opinion piece is full of holes you could drive a
truck through. He obviously has no familiarity with human physiology
(he's a veterinarian, you know), but believes he is qualified to argue
the finer points of forensic pathology with someone who actually has
training in that field. I think Dr. Bennett's critique is concise,
well-supported, and comes from someone with (human) medical training
and an extremely strong background in AIDS and pediatrics.
That's just my take on it.
(BTW, the "MD" stands for "medical doctor" -- and I'm a pediatrician,
too. Just ask Jan.)
From: Peter Moran on 13 Dec 2005 00:11
"alexr" <rojkov(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
> To be honest I don't feel comfortable discussing her case as I am not a
> doctor. All I am is an individual who chooses to take matters in his
> own hands.
> If you are actually interested in medical error statistics just google
> The above site comes one of the first.
> There is plenty of evidence on the internet that alternative methods
> work and work well.
Such as? Work for what? And how consistently over a thousand or so
"alternative" claims? Alternative methods are a mixture of fairly harmless
folk medical practices, serious fraud and very serious quackery. I am sure
you know that as well as anyone, unless you are prepared to swallow any and
every claim. Most of us don't care about the trivia (unless associated with
outrageous scientific claims) , but we feel compelled to object to cancer
and AIDS sufferers and others with serious illnesses being misled and taken
to the cleaners by frauds.
>Long before the internet became common place, more
> 10 years ago in Russia I came across a book by Malahov (in russian)
> that gave almost exactly the same reciepe as Clark's.
That's not surprising. Clark has merely taken a number of fairly prominent
themes in alternative medicine (toxins, mysterious infections, electrical
gadgetry, cleanses, etc) and elaborated on them in absurd detail - detail
that is beyond her capacity to either investigate or observe.
Alternative regimes all tend to converge on the same pool of fashionable
treatment methods, as everyone tries to keep up with the Joneses. This is
also why they can get so ridiculously complicated. Clark has her poor
cancer patients running around like chooks with their heads chopped off
trying to keep up with her advice and to do everything right with the
syncrometer and the Zapper and the Zappicator and the Sonicator , when there
is no evidence that ANY of her measures have any effect on established
cancer and most of them could be quite simply proved untrue by a week or two
in a proper pathology laboratory.
>He wrote a series
> of books that explore wholistic approach to heath and I have had great
> sucess following his advice ever since I started 2 years ago.
That may prove nothing more than that you have never had much worng with you
anyway, or that you have a biased and undiscerning approach to assessing
medical questions. Nothing has been better proven in medicine than that
inactive treatments can sustain a staunch following.
> In russia by the way there is no alternative medicine. Alternative is
> refered to as "Traditional". And there is "Official", that's the one
> that never makes any mistakes and is always right.
From: JanD on 13 Dec 2005 00:44
"Peter Moran" <pmoranATbordernet.com.au> wrote
> "alexr" <rojkov(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>> To be honest I don't feel comfortable discussing her case as I am not a
>> doctor. All I am is an individual who chooses to take matters in his
>> own hands.
>> If you are actually interested in medical error statistics just google
>> The above site comes one of the first.
>> There is plenty of evidence on the internet that alternative methods
>> work and work well.
Allow me to clue you in to Peter Moran.
He is so brainwashed, he is completely and totally dishonest.
All medical advances have entailed risk, ever since the first caveman
> said"I wonder what this berry does?".
> Using retroviruses to try and correct lethal and potentially lethal gene
> defects is a very legitimate and logic alavenue of medical research. So
> this is nothing to do with "conspiracies", "coverups" .
> It is a matter of the quality of informed consent that was applied. It
> would be unusual these days for such issues to not be addressed carefully
> by the researchers and the ethics committees to which all clinical trials
> are submitted thesedays. We cannot know how culpable the doctors are
> from this rather emotive news item.
This has to do with a loving and caring volunteering teenager, helping
You may have heard about it. The article is no longer available, but you can
find it on the net.
So I will post the many cover ups, the whole mess. Peter denied it all. My
comments are added.
Years earlier, a scientist just a few miles away from the Gelsinger's
> home in Tucson had raised serious questions about whether the experiment
> was safe.*
> . Feb. 8, 2002: FDA letter, attempt to ban Dr. Wilson from other
> experiments. . March 3, 2000: FDA Warning Letter, original findings about
> the gene therapy experiment.
> (No coverups there,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
> The trouble is, Paul Gelsinger says, Dr. Wilson's team had never told him
> that anyone had ever raised questions about safety
> (That's fine and dandy according to organized medicine member, Peter
> ADVERSE REACTIONS WERE NOT REPORTED And that was just the beginning.
> Federal investigators, pouring through Penn's records, announced at the
> conference that they had made a series of startling discoveries, raising
> questions about whether the doctors had covered up problems and broken
> basic test rules.
> In fact, just a few months before Jesse had signed up for the experiment,
> several monkeys given viruses similar to Jesse's got sick. And two of them
> (No coverup there)
> The rules for the experiment said: Even if volunteers didn't get visibly
> ill, if tests showed that any of them had a significant reaction called
> "grade 3," the experiment was supposed to be "halted" immediately. Records
> show there were "grade 3" reactions in more than one patient. The first
> time, doctors stopped, called the government and got permission to
> continue, saying an unusual condition with the patient might have been the
> cause. The second time, they stopped, called and got permission again,
> citing another unusual condition. But when it happened a third time, they
> didn't stop, didn't call. Then, a fourth time. They didn't stop or call
> then either
> (No coverups there).
> For their own safety, volunteers weren't supposed to have a blood
> ammonia level higher than 50. But people were coming in with higher levels
> and without proper approval. The limit was raised to 70. When Jesse signed
> up over the summer, he was within the limits, but records show that when
> Penn doctors tested him, just days before the experiment, his reading was
> 114 - more than double the original safety limit.
> (That's way cool huh Peter???)
> HIGH FINANCIAL STAKES With so many red flags from the monkey deaths to the
> reactions in other volunteers, even to Jesse's own ammonia levels, Why had
> Dr. Wilson's team allowed the experiment to continue?
> (Wonder if Peter can answer this question?)
> At the University of Pennsylvania, the conflict committee approved
> Dr. Wilson's arrangement with Genovo. In fact, the university itself owned
> a piece of his company and stood to profit, too.
> In a statement, the university acknowledged that some information
> "should have been shared with the FDA sooner."
> (Just a minor little slip,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
> There was no information given to Jesse or his family about the monkey
> deaths. There was no information given to Jesse or his family about toxic
> results in prior patients. There was no information that would allow Jesse
> and his family to make any kind of informed decision."
> (Peter STILL can't see any coverup!!!! NO dishonesty!)
> CONFIDENTIAL REPORTS
> He told congress that other private companies in the race for cures
> had also been doing gene therapy experiments and had also gotten adverse
> reactions. But instead of sharing the information, government rules
> allowed them to stamp those reactions "confidential," classifying them as
> trade secrets to protect their research investments. So, while the
> government knew about them, other researchers like Dr. Wilson and
> volunteers like Jesse Gelsinger were never allowed to see them.
> (TRust the government!!!)
> "I was outraged," says Paul. "I had a right to know. Jesse had a right to
> (Oh my,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,emotions).
> ***In February, the Food and Drug Administration said that because Dr.
> Wilson filed "false and misleading" reports and "repeatedly and
> deliberately violated regulations ****
> REPEAT FOR THE HARD HEADED!!!
> ***Dr. Wilson filed "false and misleading" reports and "repeatedly and
> deliberately violated regulations ***
> (No coverups,,,,,,,,,,no fraud,,,,,,,,,,no deliberate
> This week marks the third anniversary of Jesse Gelsinger's death. At
> the University of Pennsylvania, Dr. Wilson
> ****is still on the faculty****
> (Soooooooooo in organized medicine,,,,,,,,,,,)
> ****Filing *false and misleading reports* is A OK,,,,,,,,,,,,****
> ****REPEATED and DELIBERATE violations,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is A OK.***
> but no longer in charge of its gene therapy program. And, in Congress,
> lawmakers are still debating legislation to provide more protection for
> medical volunteers.
> ******in the end, whether Jesse was betrayed by the doctors he and his
> family thought they could trust.*********
> Peter Moran
>> In russia by the way there is no alternative medicine. Alternative is
>> refered to as "Traditional". And there is "Official", that's the one
>> that never makes any mistakes and is always right.
From: cathyb on 13 Dec 2005 01:09
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 05:44:50 GMT, "JanD" <JanD(a)insightbb.com> wrote:
> >Allow me to clue you in to Peter Moran.
> Is this thread about Peter Moran?
> I snipped all the lies Jan told about Peter. Sadly there is nothing
Yep. Once again Jan has launched herself into a discussion without one
mention of the topic at hand. In fact all of her posts to this thread
are simply repetitions of her lies about other posters, along with some
peddling of a bizarre cult.
Likewise, all she has had to say thus far on Nick Bennet's analysis of
al-Bayati's twisting of the autopsy of Eliza Jane Scovill has been
about where he posts from!? Not a single word about the content of his
>Jan is incapable of allowing others to express their opinions
> without her trashing them. She single handedly derails more
> discussions in this group than any other member.
> When people criticize Jan it is not to disrupt discussion since Jan
> never discusses anything. It is to point out her hypocrisy or lies.
> Best defense to logic is ignorance