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From: Rick B. on 11 May 2007 00:34
Hi folks,

Does anyone here have to take blood pressure medicine? For the past
3-4 years, I've taken generic Ziac (a diuretic), which has worked
great. I'm at 110/70.

The only concern I have is something I've just thought about in the
last few days. One of the things that Ziac also does is lower heart
rate. Now, I work out 3-4 times a week, usually at the gym. I am now
doing 30 minutes on the elliptical, 15-20 on a recumbent bike, then I
use the weights, and then lots of stretching. During the week, I
workout from around 8:15-10:30. I take the Ziac in the morning,
around 7 a.m. On the weekends, I'll usually go workout either or both
Saturday and Sunday. On those days, I don't take one until after I
workout, around 5, usually. And I've noticed I don't work out any
harder, but my heart rate seems to increase when I've gone without one
for the day. Which is good, and puts me more in the target range.

Add this to the fact that, for all the working out, my HDL (the good
cholesterol) is at 38, which isn't good. Exercise is supposed to
help, but it doesn't. I take Crestor for cholesterol, BTW. It helps
lower the LDL and triglycerides really well, and it did raise the HDL
for a time, but not now. My doctor (a PCP) was concerned so he
scheduled me for a scan of my carotid artery. The results found a
small heterogeneous deposit. Not good, but not awful, yet. My doc
thinks staying on what I'm on will help that deposit go away.

Here's my question (if anyone here knows, or has an opinion based on
evidence): He didn't change my blood pressure medicine, because it
has worked, but I'm wondering, should I change it to something else
that doesn't affect my heart rate? I had read that one way to raise
the HDL on the elliptical trainer was to do intervals where I ramp up
the heart rate for two minutes or so, then bring it down, and
continue. I'm moving in that direction. Plus, I'm 6'2" and now down
to 188. I have my goal to be at 180, which at the rate I'm going,
might take a month. (I'm not pushing it).

Along with possibly changing my blood pressure medicine to increase my
heart rate, and opinions about that, what do you folks take as far as
blood pressure meds and/or statins for cholesterol?

Thanks to all who respond.

Rick
From: Steve Freides on 11 May 2007 07:56
"Rick B." <rick(a)spamgmail.com> wrote in message
news:n6r743hhf0luu2pqgolq0vsis9nogd4rs8(a)4ax.com...
> Hi folks,
>
> Does anyone here have to take blood pressure medicine? For the past
> 3-4 years, I've taken generic Ziac (a diuretic), which has worked
> great. I'm at 110/70.
>
> The only concern I have is something I've just thought about in the
> last few days. One of the things that Ziac also does is lower heart
> rate. Now, I work out 3-4 times a week, usually at the gym. I am now
> doing 30 minutes on the elliptical, 15-20 on a recumbent bike, then I
> use the weights, and then lots of stretching. During the week, I
> workout from around 8:15-10:30. I take the Ziac in the morning,
> around 7 a.m. On the weekends, I'll usually go workout either or both
> Saturday and Sunday. On those days, I don't take one until after I
> workout, around 5, usually. And I've noticed I don't work out any
> harder, but my heart rate seems to increase when I've gone without one
> for the day. Which is good, and puts me more in the target range.
>
> Add this to the fact that, for all the working out, my HDL (the good
> cholesterol) is at 38, which isn't good. Exercise is supposed to
> help, but it doesn't. I take Crestor for cholesterol, BTW. It helps
> lower the LDL and triglycerides really well, and it did raise the HDL
> for a time, but not now. My doctor (a PCP) was concerned so he
> scheduled me for a scan of my carotid artery. The results found a
> small heterogeneous deposit. Not good, but not awful, yet. My doc
> thinks staying on what I'm on will help that deposit go away.
>
> Here's my question (if anyone here knows, or has an opinion based on
> evidence): He didn't change my blood pressure medicine, because it
> has worked, but I'm wondering, should I change it to something else
> that doesn't affect my heart rate? I had read that one way to raise
> the HDL on the elliptical trainer was to do intervals where I ramp up
> the heart rate for two minutes or so, then bring it down, and
> continue. I'm moving in that direction. Plus, I'm 6'2" and now down
> to 188. I have my goal to be at 180, which at the rate I'm going,
> might take a month. (I'm not pushing it).
>
> Along with possibly changing my blood pressure medicine to increase my
> heart rate, and opinions about that, what do you folks take as far as
> blood pressure meds and/or statins for cholesterol?
>
> Thanks to all who respond.
>
> Rick

Congratulations on the weight loss.

You might look into change in your diet. You don't talk about what you
eat, but healthy, whole foods can work wonders. Less salt, fewer carbs
can help as well. There is a lot to read about diet - my most recent
read was from here - http://www.defensenutrition.com - and my wife and I
have both been following this program for about the last month.

You might ask your doctor about taking less medicine 110/70 is fine, but
120/80 is also acceptable as far as I know - disclaimer: I am not a
doctor.

Ziac is _not_ only a diuretic. Look it up on the Internet - it's a beta
blocker plus a diuretic, and most listings focus on the beta blocker
portion. The beta blocker is, I believe, what changes your heart rate -
a diuretic should not have that effect.

Consider some form of weight lifting - the older we get, the more we
tend to gain fat and lose muscle. Weight lifting can help tremendously
with this.

It's been my second-hand experience - through family and friends, since
I've never had high blood pressure or taken high blood pressure
medication - that doctors are very reluctant to lower or get rid of beta
blockers and other blood pressure and cholesterol medications once you
start on them, but this is a "treadmill" worth trying to get yourself
weaned from if at all possible. Please follow your doctor's advice, but
don't be afraid to seek a second opinion and don't be afraid to take
your health into your own hands as much as you can.

Just my opinion.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


From: Rick B. on 13 May 2007 02:08
On Fri, 11 May 2007 07:56:36 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<steve(a)fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

>"Rick B." <rick(a)spamgmail.com> wrote in message
>news:n6r743hhf0luu2pqgolq0vsis9nogd4rs8(a)4ax.com...
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Does anyone here have to take blood pressure medicine? For the past
>> 3-4 years, I've taken generic Ziac (a diuretic), which has worked
>> great. I'm at 110/70.
>>
>> The only concern I have is something I've just thought about in the
>> last few days. One of the things that Ziac also does is lower heart
>> rate. Now, I work out 3-4 times a week, usually at the gym. I am now
>> doing 30 minutes on the elliptical, 15-20 on a recumbent bike, then I
>> use the weights, and then lots of stretching. During the week, I
>> workout from around 8:15-10:30. I take the Ziac in the morning,
>> around 7 a.m. On the weekends, I'll usually go workout either or both
>> Saturday and Sunday. On those days, I don't take one until after I
>> workout, around 5, usually. And I've noticed I don't work out any
>> harder, but my heart rate seems to increase when I've gone without one
>> for the day. Which is good, and puts me more in the target range.
>>
>> Add this to the fact that, for all the working out, my HDL (the good
>> cholesterol) is at 38, which isn't good. Exercise is supposed to
>> help, but it doesn't. I take Crestor for cholesterol, BTW. It helps
>> lower the LDL and triglycerides really well, and it did raise the HDL
>> for a time, but not now. My doctor (a PCP) was concerned so he
>> scheduled me for a scan of my carotid artery. The results found a
>> small heterogeneous deposit. Not good, but not awful, yet. My doc
>> thinks staying on what I'm on will help that deposit go away.
>>
>> Here's my question (if anyone here knows, or has an opinion based on
>> evidence): He didn't change my blood pressure medicine, because it
>> has worked, but I'm wondering, should I change it to something else
>> that doesn't affect my heart rate? I had read that one way to raise
>> the HDL on the elliptical trainer was to do intervals where I ramp up
>> the heart rate for two minutes or so, then bring it down, and
>> continue. I'm moving in that direction. Plus, I'm 6'2" and now down
>> to 188. I have my goal to be at 180, which at the rate I'm going,
>> might take a month. (I'm not pushing it).
>>
>> Along with possibly changing my blood pressure medicine to increase my
>> heart rate, and opinions about that, what do you folks take as far as
>> blood pressure meds and/or statins for cholesterol?
>>
>> Thanks to all who respond.
>>
>> Rick
>
>Congratulations on the weight loss.
>

Steve,

Thanks. I used to weigh 225 or more. I've found the last 10-15 to be
the hardest. Still, it's happening and I hope to continue.

>You might look into change in your diet. You don't talk about what you
>eat, but healthy, whole foods can work wonders.

Weekdays, I eat a bagel with lite cream cheese or low-fat margarine
for breakfast. After I go to work, I eat Yoplait low-fat yogurt,
mixing in Kashi clusters, followed by a small Kashi bar. An hour
later, a banana. Followed by lunch, often a Lean Cuisine bistro
sandwich or pizza or a grilled chicken salad from the food court. Then
a larger Kashi bar (sorry, don't recall the names of either the large
or small Kashis). Then a Cameo apple if I have one. Then go home and
have dinner, which could be anything like hamburger, pasta,etc.
(always with a green vegetable). But since I've been eating on and
off most of the day, it's not huge portions. Followed by a Weight
Watchers frozen fudge bar and maybe a hunk of dark chocolate, then
half a bag of 94% fat free popcorn always later on whether or not I go
work out or not.

Less salt, fewer carbs
>can help as well. There is a lot to read about diet - my most recent
>read was from here - http://www.defensenutrition.com - and my wife and I
>have both been following this program for about the last month.

Yeah, the doctor did ask about carbs. I know bagels have carbs, but
it's going to be hard giving them up.

>You might ask your doctor about taking less medicine 110/70 is fine, but
>120/80 is also acceptable as far as I know - disclaimer: I am not a
>doctor.

Actually, my dosage on the Ziac is pretty small. It was even smaller
before, until I started having problems with it going up again.

>Ziac is _not_ only a diuretic. Look it up on the Internet - it's a beta
>blocker plus a diuretic, and most listings focus on the beta blocker
>portion. The beta blocker is, I believe, what changes your heart rate -
>a diuretic should not have that effect.

You are correct. Thanks, I'd forgotten that.

>Consider some form of weight lifting - the older we get, the more we
>tend to gain fat and lose muscle. Weight lifting can help tremendously
>with this.
>

I'm trying to do more. The problem is, I have a pretty bad neck
(bulges between nearly every vertebrae and arthritis) and my shoulders
are in a lot of pain so I can't overdo it. So as much as I'd like to
be working my upper body as much as my lower, it remains a challenge.
I've gone to PT several times, and that wasn't too successful. But I
haven't given up.

>It's been my second-hand experience - through family and friends, since
>I've never had high blood pressure or taken high blood pressure
>medication - that doctors are very reluctant to lower or get rid of beta
>blockers and other blood pressure and cholesterol medications once you
>start on them, but this is a "treadmill" worth trying to get yourself
>weaned from if at all possible.

You are probably right. The two doctors I've seen about this have
both said I need to take them forever. At least the blood pressure
meds. I actually had started on a more expensive BP medication, but
right afterwards a huge study came out saying that the older drugs
like Ziac were as good if not better than the new ones. And since the
cost difference was large between the two, he put me on Ziac.

Please follow your doctor's advice, but
>don't be afraid to seek a second opinion and don't be afraid to take
>your health into your own hands as much as you can.

I agree with that. If I had listened to the doctors I have seen, I
would have had more surgeries than the partial laminectomy (L4-5) I
had in 1987, and the rhinoplasty (for a deviated septum - the surgery
for which, btw, didn't work):

Spinal fusion of neck
Spinal fusion of low back
Carpal tunnel release (both hands)
Right ethmoid sinus surgery

All of the above were avoided by getting 2nd and sometimes 3rd
opinions. I have thought seriously of going to a cardiac specialist,
but I was going to wait 6 months, and in which time I figure on losing
the final 10-15 pounds, and then see what the next carotid artery
scan and cholesterol results were to see what, if any changes, occur.


>Just my opinion.
>

>-S-
>http://www.kbnj.com
>

But I might just go ahead and see a heart specialist. In any case,
Steve, thanks for the post. Very thoughtful and thought-provoking
questions, my friend, without a hint of negativity. Good stuff.
Thanks!

Rick
From: Steve Freides on 13 May 2007 16:34
"Rick B." <rick(a)spamgmail.com> wrote in message
news:nv8d43le0vtn7m9q3490kkjg98i56qt35r(a)4ax.com...
> On Fri, 11 May 2007 07:56:36 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> <steve(a)fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>>"Rick B." <rick(a)spamgmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:n6r743hhf0luu2pqgolq0vsis9nogd4rs8(a)4ax.com...
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> Does anyone here have to take blood pressure medicine? For the past
>>> 3-4 years, I've taken generic Ziac (a diuretic), which has worked
>>> great. I'm at 110/70.
>>>
>>> The only concern I have is something I've just thought about in the
>>> last few days. One of the things that Ziac also does is lower heart
>>> rate. Now, I work out 3-4 times a week, usually at the gym. I am
>>> now
>>> doing 30 minutes on the elliptical, 15-20 on a recumbent bike, then
>>> I
>>> use the weights, and then lots of stretching. During the week, I
>>> workout from around 8:15-10:30. I take the Ziac in the morning,
>>> around 7 a.m. On the weekends, I'll usually go workout either or
>>> both
>>> Saturday and Sunday. On those days, I don't take one until after I
>>> workout, around 5, usually. And I've noticed I don't work out any
>>> harder, but my heart rate seems to increase when I've gone without
>>> one
>>> for the day. Which is good, and puts me more in the target range.
>>>
>>> Add this to the fact that, for all the working out, my HDL (the good
>>> cholesterol) is at 38, which isn't good. Exercise is supposed to
>>> help, but it doesn't. I take Crestor for cholesterol, BTW. It
>>> helps
>>> lower the LDL and triglycerides really well, and it did raise the
>>> HDL
>>> for a time, but not now. My doctor (a PCP) was concerned so he
>>> scheduled me for a scan of my carotid artery. The results found a
>>> small heterogeneous deposit. Not good, but not awful, yet. My doc
>>> thinks staying on what I'm on will help that deposit go away.
>>>
>>> Here's my question (if anyone here knows, or has an opinion based on
>>> evidence): He didn't change my blood pressure medicine, because it
>>> has worked, but I'm wondering, should I change it to something else
>>> that doesn't affect my heart rate? I had read that one way to raise
>>> the HDL on the elliptical trainer was to do intervals where I ramp
>>> up
>>> the heart rate for two minutes or so, then bring it down, and
>>> continue. I'm moving in that direction. Plus, I'm 6'2" and now
>>> down
>>> to 188. I have my goal to be at 180, which at the rate I'm going,
>>> might take a month. (I'm not pushing it).
>>>
>>> Along with possibly changing my blood pressure medicine to increase
>>> my
>>> heart rate, and opinions about that, what do you folks take as far
>>> as
>>> blood pressure meds and/or statins for cholesterol?
>>>
>>> Thanks to all who respond.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>
>>Congratulations on the weight loss.
>>
>
> Steve,
>
> Thanks. I used to weigh 225 or more. I've found the last 10-15 to be
> the hardest. Still, it's happening and I hope to continue.
>
>>You might look into change in your diet. You don't talk about what
>>you
>>eat, but healthy, whole foods can work wonders.
>
> Weekdays, I eat a bagel with lite cream cheese or low-fat margarine
> for breakfast. After I go to work, I eat Yoplait low-fat yogurt,
> mixing in Kashi clusters, followed by a small Kashi bar. An hour
> later, a banana. Followed by lunch, often a Lean Cuisine bistro
> sandwich or pizza or a grilled chicken salad from the food court. Then
> a larger Kashi bar (sorry, don't recall the names of either the large
> or small Kashis). Then a Cameo apple if I have one. Then go home and
> have dinner, which could be anything like hamburger, pasta,etc.
> (always with a green vegetable). But since I've been eating on and
> off most of the day, it's not huge portions. Followed by a Weight
> Watchers frozen fudge bar and maybe a hunk of dark chocolate, then
> half a bag of 94% fat free popcorn always later on whether or not I go
> work out or not.
>
> Less salt, fewer carbs
>>can help as well. There is a lot to read about diet - my most recent
>>read was from here - http://www.defensenutrition.com - and my wife and
>>I
>>have both been following this program for about the last month.
>
> Yeah, the doctor did ask about carbs. I know bagels have carbs, but
> it's going to be hard giving them up.

Your list of food is, no offense intended, pretty mainstream American.
Try an orange or two instead of your oatmeal - we have an old-fashioned
juicer, and we make fresh-squeezed orange juice here all time. Buy
juice oranges in 4 lb. bags or similar. Your Yoplait can be replaced by
something like Kefir or other live-culture yogurt - go for something
ethnic sounding, they're usually better - don't ask me why. Bananas are
high-calorie as far as fruits go - keep that in mind. Almonds or other
nuts (walnuts, pistachios) make _excellent_ snacks - filling, good
source of protein, healthy fats, and even some fiber. Lean Cuisine is
frozen food - make something real, it's almost guaranteed to be better.

Just a few thoughts for you - best of luck with it all.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


>>You might ask your doctor about taking less medicine 110/70 is fine,
>>but
>>120/80 is also acceptable as far as I know - disclaimer: I am not a
>>doctor.
>
> Actually, my dosage on the Ziac is pretty small. It was even smaller
> before, until I started having problems with it going up again.
>
>>Ziac is _not_ only a diuretic. Look it up on the Internet - it's a
>>beta
>>blocker plus a diuretic, and most listings focus on the beta blocker
>>portion. The beta blocker is, I believe, what changes your heart
>>rate -
>>a diuretic should not have that effect.
>
> You are correct. Thanks, I'd forgotten that.
>
>>Consider some form of weight lifting - the older we get, the more we
>>tend to gain fat and lose muscle. Weight lifting can help
>>tremendously
>>with this.
>>
>
> I'm trying to do more. The problem is, I have a pretty bad neck
> (bulges between nearly every vertebrae and arthritis) and my shoulders
> are in a lot of pain so I can't overdo it. So as much as I'd like to
> be working my upper body as much as my lower, it remains a challenge.
> I've gone to PT several times, and that wasn't too successful. But I
> haven't given up.
>
>>It's been my second-hand experience - through family and friends,
>>since
>>I've never had high blood pressure or taken high blood pressure
>>medication - that doctors are very reluctant to lower or get rid of
>>beta
>>blockers and other blood pressure and cholesterol medications once you
>>start on them, but this is a "treadmill" worth trying to get yourself
>>weaned from if at all possible.
>
> You are probably right. The two doctors I've seen about this have
> both said I need to take them forever. At least the blood pressure
> meds. I actually had started on a more expensive BP medication, but
> right afterwards a huge study came out saying that the older drugs
> like Ziac were as good if not better than the new ones. And since the
> cost difference was large between the two, he put me on Ziac.
>
> Please follow your doctor's advice, but
>>don't be afraid to seek a second opinion and don't be afraid to take
>>your health into your own hands as much as you can.
>
> I agree with that. If I had listened to the doctors I have seen, I
> would have had more surgeries than the partial laminectomy (L4-5) I
> had in 1987, and the rhinoplasty (for a deviated septum - the surgery
> for which, btw, didn't work):
>
> Spinal fusion of neck
> Spinal fusion of low back
> Carpal tunnel release (both hands)
> Right ethmoid sinus surgery
>
> All of the above were avoided by getting 2nd and sometimes 3rd
> opinions. I have thought seriously of going to a cardiac specialist,
> but I was going to wait 6 months, and in which time I figure on losing
> the final 10-15 pounds, and then see what the next carotid artery
> scan and cholesterol results were to see what, if any changes, occur.
>
>
>>Just my opinion.
>>
>
>>-S-
>>http://www.kbnj.com
>>
>
> But I might just go ahead and see a heart specialist. In any case,
> Steve, thanks for the post. Very thoughtful and thought-provoking
> questions, my friend, without a hint of negativity. Good stuff.
> Thanks!
>
> Rick


From: raymond on 23 May 2007 15:23
On Fri, 11 May 2007 04:34:11 GMT, Rick B. <rick(a)spamgmail.com> wrote:

>Hi folks,
>
>Does anyone here have to take blood pressure medicine? For the past
>3-4 years, I've taken generic Ziac (a diuretic), which has worked
>great. I'm at 110/70.
>
>The only concern I have is something I've just thought about in the
>last few days. One of the things that Ziac also does is lower heart
>rate. Now, I work out 3-4 times a week, usually at the gym. I am now
>doing 30 minutes on the elliptical, 15-20 on a recumbent bike, then I
>use the weights, and then lots of stretching. During the week, I
>workout from around 8:15-10:30. I take the Ziac in the morning,
>around 7 a.m. On the weekends, I'll usually go workout either or both
>Saturday and Sunday. On those days, I don't take one until after I
>workout, around 5, usually. And I've noticed I don't work out any
>harder, but my heart rate seems to increase when I've gone without one
>for the day. Which is good, and puts me more in the target range.
>
>Add this to the fact that, for all the working out, my HDL (the good
>cholesterol) is at 38, which isn't good. Exercise is supposed to
>help, but it doesn't. I take Crestor for cholesterol, BTW. It helps
>lower the LDL and triglycerides really well, and it did raise the HDL
>for a time, but not now. My doctor (a PCP) was concerned so he
>scheduled me for a scan of my carotid artery. The results found a
>small heterogeneous deposit. Not good, but not awful, yet. My doc
>thinks staying on what I'm on will help that deposit go away.
>
>Here's my question (if anyone here knows, or has an opinion based on
>evidence): He didn't change my blood pressure medicine, because it
>has worked, but I'm wondering, should I change it to something else
>that doesn't affect my heart rate? I had read that one way to raise
>the HDL on the elliptical trainer was to do intervals where I ramp up
>the heart rate for two minutes or so, then bring it down, and
>continue. I'm moving in that direction. Plus, I'm 6'2" and now down
>to 188. I have my goal to be at 180, which at the rate I'm going,
>might take a month. (I'm not pushing it).
>
>Along with possibly changing my blood pressure medicine to increase my
>heart rate, and opinions about that, what do you folks take as far as
>blood pressure meds and/or statins for cholesterol?
>
>Thanks to all who respond.
>
I can only give you my experience. I tried taking a beta blocker,
Inderal (which has no dieuretic), and I had my doctor take me off of
it because I couldn't exercise. I'm on Avalide now. I like it much
better.

Hank gathers, a young basketball player in the early 1990s, was taking
Inderal to control arrhythmia when he died suddenly during a game.
When I heard he was taking the stuff, it didn't surprise me at all. I
would never have been able to exercise at the rate required for a
basketball game while taking that stuff.

I have taken blood pressure medications for 20 years. Occasionally my
body changes and the one I'm taking is no longer effective, so my
doctor has to start experimenting. I tell him I'll try anything but a
beta blocker. I simply refuse to take them.
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