From: Mark Probert on
On Oct 11, 12:13 am, Jan Drew <jdrew63...(a)aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 9, 4:30 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 9, 4:11 pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Oct 9, 1:01 pm, catherine hoffman <choffman0...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > > dietary supplements business.  Many products contain
> > > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is.  A majority
> > > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > > WoW!,
> > > > I know quite a bit about the FDA, but I didn't know that they did not
> > > > regulate the supplements. Is that also true for MLM companies?
>
> > > Its not they don't have enough authority rather they choose
> > > not to enforce it.
>
> > Incorrect. They do not have enough authority. DSHEA.
>
> http://www.naturalnews.com/z008269_health_medicine_organized_medicine...
>
> Why organized medicine wants to outlaw nutrition and turn healers into
> criminals
> by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger, NaturalNews Editor

No one wants to outlaw nutrition. MikeyAdams, at unNaturalNews, needs
to lie about this.

From: Mark Probert on
On Oct 11, 12:23 am, Jan Drew <jdrew63...(a)aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 9, 8:03 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 9, 4:55 pm, PeterB <p...(a)mytrashmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 9, 4:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 9, 3:48 pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > > > dietary supplements business. Many products contain
> > > > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is. A majority
> > > > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > > > Ha unapproved drugs they call them. I'll bet
> > > > > they include alot of perfectly safe ingredients
> > > > > in their list of "unapproved drugs,"
> > > > > I wouldn't trust most proposed reforms other than
> > > > > perhaps a bit more funding and monitoring to prevent
> > > > > pharma drugs and toxics being slipped in by
> > > > > crooks.
>
> > > > I would like to see:
>
> > > > 1. Mandatory reporting of all adverse events, lawsuits, etc.
>
> > > > 2. Complete disclosure of all ingredients, and banning the term
> > > > "Proprietary bland" etc.
>
> > > > 3. Requirement that there be some standard of efficacy.
>
> > > > For starters.
>
> > > There is substantial "GMP" compliance by most of the reputable
> > > manufacturers, and many provide certified assays on request.
>
> > Years ago, a doctor gave me a can of a supplement touted to treat
> > ADHD. It smelled pretty good, so we decided to try it on my son. The
> > problem was, it would not dissolve. It created a thick, gritty soupy
> > material that he would not touch, and, I found unpalatable.
>
> > I wrote to the manufacturer who refused to tell me the contents (that
> > is what a proprietary blend is).
>
> > Since we could not use it for the intended purpose, I used it in my
> > vegetable garden along with home made compost.
>
> > Best vegetables ever.
>
> > So, I wrote the manufacturer an endorsement of their product as a
> > fertilizer. I even sent them a zucchini, just so they could see how
> > good it was and posted it on their website.
>
> > They were not too happy.
>
> > Since a
>
> > > large percentage of these products are made using pharmaceutically-
> > > made materials,
>
> > That bears being proven by you.
>
> > > some of this problem rests with the drug makers.-
>
> > Nah. The problems rest with the whole idea of supplements. A balanced
> > diet does a fine job and no supplements are needed.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.attn-deficit/msg/b47238df1...
>
> *Anecdotes are not facts. They are, at best interesting stories. At
> worst, outright lies.*  Mark Probert-

Like I have told you 10000 times, my statement refers to people, such
as yourself, who want to use anecdotes to prove medical issues.

Anecdotes as I used them here are just fine.

You will not understand this point, and continue to post the quote to
stalk, harass and abuse me.

From: Mark Probert on
On Oct 11, 12:46 am, Jan Drew <jdrew63...(a)aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 10, 10:31 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 10, 1:02 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Oct 9, 1:30 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 9, 4:11 pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 9, 1:01 pm, catherine hoffman <choffman0...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > > > > dietary supplements business. Many products contain
> > > > > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is. A majority
> > > > > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > > > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > > > > WoW!,
> > > > > > I know quite a bit about the FDA, but I didn't know that they did not
> > > > > > regulate the supplements. Is that also true for MLM companies?
>
> > > > > Its not they don't have enough authority rather they choose
> > > > > not to enforce it.
>
> > > > Incorrect. They do not have enough authority. DSHEA.
>
> > > Rubbish. The DSHEA is a great thing.-
>
> > The passage of DSHEA was riddled with clear conflict of interest of
> > Orrin Hatch of Utah, which was, at that time, a major manufacture
> > state of supplements. Hatch's son has been a lobbyist for supplement
> > manufacturers.
>
> > And, DSHEA gutted the FDA and FTC's authority. Said gutting lead to
> > the death of a son of a friend of ours.
>
> Another anecdote.

Rather good one. I pointed that out as demonstrative of why I feel the
way I do.

> *Anecdotes are pure bullshit* according to the disbarred lawyer.  Who
> remained silent when disbarred.
> But, comes one Usenet to shoot off his lying big mouth.

Like YOU? Bigot.

>
> Now, watch for him try to change the subject to Stalking, etc.-

Repeating the repeated repeatedly.
From: Mark Probert on
On Oct 11, 1:12 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 10, 7:31 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 10, 1:02 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Oct 9, 1:30 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 9, 4:11 pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 9, 1:01 pm, catherine hoffman <choffman0...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > > > > dietary supplements business.  Many products contain
> > > > > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is.  A majority
> > > > > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > > > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > > > > WoW!,
> > > > > > I know quite a bit about the FDA, but I didn't know that they did not
> > > > > > regulate the supplements. Is that also true for MLM companies?
>
> > > > > Its not they don't have enough authority rather they choose
> > > > > not to enforce it.
>
> > > > Incorrect. They do not have enough authority. DSHEA.
>
> > > Rubbish. The DSHEA is a great thing.-
>
> > The passage of DSHEA was riddled with clear conflict of interest of
> > Orrin Hatch of Utah, which was, at that time, a major manufacture
> > state of supplements. Hatch's son has been a lobbyist for supplement
> > manufacturers.
>
> > And, DSHEA gutted the FDA and FTC's authority. Said gutting lead to
> > the death of a son of a friend of ours.
>
> No laws are perfect. And all laws are made like sausage.
> As to the death, it likely was an ephredra related.

No, it was not.

> Many of those who ran it problem i.e. death very took large
> doses. Ephredra is in a class of drugs that have
> a NARROW safety margin. It has been use to
> good effect in persons with COPD in the past.
> Though it had a dose standardisation issue.
> Taking it as stimulant is not a wise action and
> a clear misuse of it drug action.
> Even the relatively safe stimulant caffeine
> gets people into the hospital all the time.
> I still say the "gutting" was a VERY good
> thing overall. Remember Tylenol like products
> have been damaging people for decades and
> it still lacks black box warning.
>
> I daily use materials that are preserved by DSHEA.
> And they make a huge difference in my personal
> quality of life and the effects are profound. We can
> discuss specifics if you want. I can put a face
> to the value of the DSHEA just as Mark seeks
> to put a face to a specific (now banned) supplement's
> risk.
>
> Can we imagine ethanol and coffee/caffeine making
> it to the market in the modern world? The
> nervous nellies would have surely ban them.
> As they in fact did over the objections of others.
>
> I do agree to an extent that herbal substances
> can contain powerful drugs and one needs to
> be informed and take it slow. Nonetheless, it
> can be useful to have an end run around
> big pharma the ignorant MDs. And I
> must admit most of my end runs haven't been
> herbal but rather hormonal i.e. melatonin and
> nutrient like i.e. betaine HCL. Just to mention
> two items. Nonetheless the FDA has messed
> with flavonoids in the past even though
> they quite benign materials. They have
> sought at times to restrict vitamin levels
> in supplements to very low levels. There
> is a history Mark and mainstream media
> ignore of bad deeds by the FDA past. The
> FDA banned folinic acid in the past.
> Now it is the favored form of the vitamin
> for some with a common metabolic defect.
> Albeit it is under a new name and under
> a patent by Merck as I recall. And though
> it is available (again) OTC which is good.
>
> leave it to a lawyer or ex-lawyer
> to imagine more regulation is
> the solution..................................Trig- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

From: Mark Probert on
On Oct 11, 2:51 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 10, 7:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 10, 1:00 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Oct 9, 1:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 9, 3:48 pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > > > dietary supplements business.  Many products contain
> > > > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is.  A majority
> > > > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > > > Ha unapproved drugs they call them. I'll bet
> > > > > they include alot of perfectly safe ingredients
> > > > > in their list of "unapproved drugs,"
> > > > > I wouldn't trust most proposed reforms other than
> > > > > perhaps a bit more funding and monitoring to prevent
> > > > > pharma drugs and toxics being slipped in by
> > > > > crooks.
>
> > > > I would like to see:
>
> > > > 1. Mandatory reporting of all adverse events, lawsuits, etc.
>
> > > > 2. Complete disclosure of all ingredients, and banning the term
> > > > "Proprietary bland" etc.
>
> > > > 3. Requirement that there be some standard of efficacy.
>
> > > > For starters.
>
> > > The last requirement is evil, wicked, and corrupt
> > > when one looks how the EU is doing it regulation of
> > > supplements.
>
> > I usully try to ignore the EU since there is enough action here.
>
> > It is all to easy for government to
>
> > > deny, drag their feet, and ignore the science and
> > > then demand excessive levels of evidence and/or
> > > wring their hands about safety to the point of
> > > absolute stupidity.
>
> > That is precisely what the FDA wrt Thalidomide.
>
> This wasn't due to the merits of the FDA.

Back in those days, the FDA was cumbersome and slow, but it worked.
Today, it is speedy and not working.

It was just
> slower than the UK folks so the product hadn't gotten
> approval. Had the timing been different and
> it had landed on a different desk, the drug could
> made to the market here and not there.

Not so. The FDA system was inherently very slow.

> It is always easier and safer for the bureaucrats
> to say no. But no is always the right answer.
> There are reasons for GRAS type lists and
> grandfathering. Is it perfect no but it is better
> than the bad judgement and bias.
>
> And by the way thalidomide made back on the
> market after some foot dragging in places
> i.e. the UK and deaths it could have prevented or at least slowed.
> Remember it is anticancer med now days at least
> off label. So thalidomide works as an example for
> my side as well.

Actually solid science rendered its current use. I have a friend with
MM who was saved by it.



>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Vitamins and nutrients are not drugs.
>
> > However, when medical claims are made, they have to be substantiated
> > by something more than saleshype.
>
> > > Understand putting something on the market without
> > > a clear claim should be an option as well.
>
> > Caveat emptor.
>
> > > I do agree their should be full content disclosure.
> > > And I believe the US FDA already has the power on that
> > > point if they chose to exercise it.
>
> > No, they do not. I have had this issue with the FDA and FTC and they
> > do not have it.
>
> > > racking the wine.............Trig- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> Life isn't so simple..............Trig- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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