From: trigonometry1972 on

> Derived from chicken sternum cartilage, UC-II consists of undenatured
> (native) type II collagen, a revolutionary new dietary ingredient that
> works with the immune system to promote healthy joints and increase
> joint mobility and flexibility (FDA-notified and published new dietary
> ingredient).* Supported by six human clinical studies, including
> research at Harvard University Medical School, UC-II is the only
> source of undenatured Type II Collagen available as a powdered, shelf
> stable dietary ingredient (U.S. patents pending). Recognized to
> improve joint mobility, flexibility and promotes healthy joints
> Revitalizing Blend:
> Bromelain - Classified as an herb, bromelain is a sulfur-containing
> proteolytic digestive enzyme that is extracted from the stem and the
> fruit of the pineapple plant (Ananas comosus, family Bromeliaceae).
> Bromelain is believed to be as effective as some commonly used
> nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory (NSAID) medications (such as ibuprofen
> and diclofenac) for reducing pain associated with osteoarthritis.
> Similarly, studies suggest that bromelain may also help reduce the
> pain associated with rheumatoid arthritis.
> Research indicates that long-standing use of bromelain is helpful in
> the treatment for other connective tissue disorders including
> scleroderma, bursitis, and tendonitis. Bromelain is useful in the
> treatment of a wide range of conditions, but it is particularly
> effective in relieving inflammation associated with infection and
> physical injuries
> Papain - Papain is a proteolytic ("protein digesting") enzyme this is
> produced by extracting techniques from the unripe papaya (pawpaw).
> It's natural and safe. Papain is used to relieve inflammation and to
> improve healing. Additionally, it is being studied for relief of
> cancer therapy side effects and rheumatoid arthritis.
> Boswellia - Boswellia is an Ayurvedic plant that contains anti-
> inflammatory triterpenoids called boswellic acids. Boswellic acid and
> its derivatives have anti-inflammation. properties as it inhibits
> proinflammatory 5-lipoxygenase chemicals and blocks leukotriene
> synthesis.
> Feverfew - Feverfew ( Tanacetum parthenium ), a member of the
> sunflower family, has been used for centuries in Europe as a remedy
> for headaches, arthritis, and inflammation. Recent laboratory studies
> have shown that feverfew can reduce inflammation and prevent blood
> vessel constriction.
> Cayenne - Cayenne pepper (also called Capsicum frutescens) is a
> stimulating herb made from the dried pods of chili peppers and is used
> as both a medicinal and nutritional herb. It is a very high source of
> vitamins and is rich in organic calcium and potassium. Widely
> recognized today for improving circulation, stimulating blood flow and
> reliving chronic pain.
> Turmeric (Curcuma longa)- is a rhizomatous herbaceous perennial plant.
> Recent findings from animal and laboratory studies support that a
> chemical found in turmeric provides anti-inflammatory and anticancer
> properties. It contains a mixture or powerful phytonutrients known as
> curcuminoids which posses anti-inflammatory properties seen to benefit
> joint and connective tissue health. A recent issue of Arthritis &
> Rheumatism, highlighted a published study showing the effectiveness of
> Curcumin in the reduction of joint inflammation, and recommended
> clinical trials for the treatment of arthritis.

Hello, looks like you have a list of things for
inflammation and arthritis. I assume these
are proposed low hanging fruit so to speak.

Bowellia is good stuff and pretty gentle on the stomach.
Feverfew has rather NSAID like adverse risk profile
so I avoid it.

I live on curcumin or should a say turmeric.

One of the Marks made a comment about
tocotrienols. And it made me good back
and look at the research especially recent
research a good thing to do now and then.
I am going to increase my dose by several
fold. I won't replace all my high gamma
mixed tocopherols with but it looks like
it has bang for buck. There is reason
to believe tocotrienols should be
really good in the context of inflammation
and arthritis.

And high EPA/DHA should be in the list.

And thanks for bring up the pineapple enzyme.
That is one I should experiment with.

MSM also great supplement with relatively
quick results on the order of a couple of
weeks provided the dose is high enough.

For some niacin and niacinamide in high
dose can be hugely helpful though it
can become toxic after prolonged use.
Therefore having a good Doc experienced
with it and the liver tests one should take
would be a good thing.

I suppose the point your making is that
some of these are low hanging fruit
if the government ever gets around to
testing some of these materials in clincal
studies. The problem is that it is possible
to design experiments to fail. By way
of the use of too few interventions, too
low of dose, in the wrong conditions,
failing monitor blood levels and dosage
compliance, inferior forms such racemic
vitamin E or isolated form vitamin E
rrr-alpha E instead all from alpha, beta,
gamma, and delta. Not mention that
tocotrienols are often the clear winners
over tocopherol for some things.

eating more of the chicken than most......Trig

From: Existential Angst on
"Mark Probert" <mark.probert(a)> wrote in message
On Oct 9, 4:55 pm, PeterB <p...(a)> wrote:
> On Oct 9, 4:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)> wrote:
> > On Oct 9, 3:48 pm, "trigonometry1...(a) |"
> > <trigonometry1...(a)> wrote:
> > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)> wrote:
> > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > dietary supplements business. Many products contain
> > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is. A majority
> > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > by a government agency.
> > > >
> > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > sorely in need of reform.
> > > Ha unapproved drugs they call them. I'll bet
> > > they include alot of perfectly safe ingredients
> > > in their list of "unapproved drugs,"
> > > I wouldn't trust most proposed reforms other than
> > > perhaps a bit more funding and monitoring to prevent
> > > pharma drugs and toxics being slipped in by
> > > crooks.
> > I would like to see:
> > 1. Mandatory reporting of all adverse events, lawsuits, etc.
> > 2. Complete disclosure of all ingredients, and banning the term
> > "Proprietary bland" etc.
> > 3. Requirement that there be some standard of efficacy.
> > For starters.
> There is substantial "GMP" compliance by most of the reputable
> manufacturers, and many provide certified assays on request.

Years ago, a doctor gave me a can of a supplement touted to treat
ADHD. It smelled pretty good, so we decided to try it on my son. The
problem was, it would not dissolve. It created a thick, gritty soupy
material that he would not touch, and, I found unpalatable.

I wrote to the manufacturer who refused to tell me the contents (that
is what a proprietary blend is).

Since we could not use it for the intended purpose, I used it in my
vegetable garden along with home made compost.

Best vegetables ever.

So, I wrote the manufacturer an endorsement of their product as a
fertilizer. I even sent them a zucchini, just so they could see how
good it was and posted it on their website.

They were not too happy.

Really? You deluded yourself with the notion that they did anything more
than delete you note?


Since a
> large percentage of these products are made using pharmaceutically-
> made materials,

That bears being proven by you.

> some of this problem rests with the drug makers.-

Nah. The problems rest with the whole idea of supplements. A balanced
diet does a fine job and no supplements are needed.

So I guess you re-balance yer diet each time the RDA is changed, eh?

Let's see.... How can I quantify the ignorance of your statement....
Let's see.... OH, I GOT IT!!!

""Even the AMA endorses multivites!!!""

Which makes YOU an even more useless source of info than Big Pharm/Big Med!!

From: Happy Oyster on
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 21:34:56 -0700 (PDT), Jan Drew <jdrew63929(a)> wrote:

>On Oct 10, 12:42?pm, Happy Oyster <happy.oys...(a)> wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 03:37:35 -0700 (PDT), "trigonometry1...(a) |"
>> <trigonometry1...(a)> wrote:
>> >Just give it a bit time. And look at the
>> >crazy proposed UL for supplements, those
>> >are stupid. And look at the crazy restrictive
>> >list of acceptable vitamin forms that
>> >are allowed in supplements. It doesn't include
>> >tocotrienols, gamma tocopherol, and
>> >a whole list of obviously safe nutrients and
>> >nutrient like substances.
>> I am not too much interested in that vitamin scene,
>A pity that.
> but I have seen how the MLM
>This thread is not about MLM.

Oh, Jan Drew again tries to down others.

Did you know that Jan Drew shills for Mercola? Mercola is so outrageously
criminal to advertise for Ryke Geerd hamer, on whose account go hundreds of
cases of death...

Your Guide to Health Fraud- and Quackery-Related Legal Matters
Department of Health and Human Services
Public Health Service
Food and Drug Administration
5100 Paint Branch Pkwy
College Park, MD
February 16, 2005


Joseph Mercola
Optimal Wellness Center
1443 W. Schaumburg, Ste 250
Schaumburg, IL 60194
Ref. No. CL-04-HFS-810-134

Dear Dr Mercola:
This is to advise you that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has reviewed
your web site at the Internet address and has determined that the products Living Fuel
Rx&trade;, Tropical Traditions Virgin Coconut Oil, and Chlorella are promoted
for conditions that cause these products to be drugs under section 201(g)(1) of
the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (the Act) [21 USC 321(g)(1)]. The
therapeutic claims on your web site establish that these products are drugs
because they are intended for use in the cure, mitigation, treatment, or
prevention of diseases. The marketing of these products with these claims
violates the Act.

Examples of some of the claims observed on your web site include:
Living Fuel Rx&trade;

"In today's society people are simply not meeting their nutritional needs. We
see evidence of this with the rampant illnesses including cancer, cardiovascular
disease, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, etc. Living Fuel Rx is an exceptional
countermeasure to this lifestyle, meeting all of your nutritional needs."

Tropical Traditions Virgin Coconut Oil

"Reduce the risk of heart disease" "Lower your cholesterol" "Improve conditions
in those with diabetes and chronic fatigue"

"Improve Crohn's, IBS [Irritable Bowel Syndrome], and other digestive disorders"
"Prevent other disease and routine illness with its powerful antibacterial,
antiviral and antifungal agents" "A Delicious Way to Prevent Disease &hellip;"

"[V]irgin coconut oil is rich in lauric acid, a proven antiviral, antibacterial
and antifungal agent that is very beneficial in attacking viruses, bacteria, and
other pathogens &hellip;." "Coconut oil also raises metabolic rate &hellip;. A
faster metabolic rate stimulates increased production of needed insulin and
increases absorption of glucose into cells, thus helping both Type I and Type II
"For those with Crohn's and IBS, the anti-inflammatory and healing effects of
coconut oil have been shown to play a role in soothing inflammation and healing
injury in the digestive tract." "The fatty acids in coconut oil can kill herpes
and Epstein Barr viruses &hellip;. They kill Candida and giardia. They kill a
variety of other infectious organisms, any of which could cause chronic


"Normalize your blood sugar and blood pressure" "Fight cancer" "One of the ways
to fight cancer is the use of agents to stimulate macrophage production and
activity. Interferon is a natural secretion of the body that is thought to be a
stimulator of macrophages and tumor necrosis factor (TNF). Chlorella stimulates
the activity of T-cells and macrophages by increasing interferon levels thus
enhancing the immune system's ability to combat foreign invaders whether they
are bacteria, viruses, chemicals, or foreign proteins."

Your products are not generally recognized as safe and effective for the above
referenced conditions and therefore, these products are also "new drugs" under
section 201(p) of the Act [21 USC 321(p)]. New drugs may not be legally marketed
in the US without prior approval from FDA as described in section 505(a) of the
Act [21 USC 355(a)]. FDA approves new drugs on the basis of scientific data
submitted by a drug sponsor to demonstrate that the drugs are safe and

FDA is aware that Internet distributors may not know that the products they
offer are regulated as drugs or that these drugs are not in compliance with the
law. Many of these products may be legally marketed as dietary supplements if
claims about diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention are removed
from the promotional materials and the products otherwise comply with all
applicable provisions of the Act and FDA regulations. With regard to your Living
Fuel Rx&trade; product, which your website describes as an "optimized superfood
meal replacement," please note that products represented for use as a meal
replacement do not meet the definition of a dietary supplement in section
201(ff) of the Act [21 USC 321(ff)] and may not be marketed as such.

Under the Act, as amended by the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act,
dietary supplements may be legally marketed with truthful and non-misleading
claims to affect the structure or function of the body (structure/function
claims), if certain requirements are met. However, claims that dietary
supplements are intended to prevent, diagnose, mitigate, treat, or cure disease
(disease claims), excepting health claims authorized for use by FDA, cause the
products to be drugs. The intended use of a product may be established through
product labels and labeling, catalogs, brochures, audio and videotapes, Internet
sites, or other circumstances surrounding the distribution of the product. FDA
has published a final rule intended to clarify the distinction between
structure/function claims and disease claims. This document is available on the
Internet at (codified at 21 CFR 101.93(g)).

In addition, only products that are intended for ingestion may be lawfully
marketed as dietary supplements. Topical products and products intended to enter
the body directly through the skin or mucosal tissues, such as transdermal or
sublingual products, are not dietary supplements. For these products, both
disease and structure/function claims may cause them to be new drugs.

Certain over-the-counter drugs are not new drugs and may be legally marketed
without prior approval from FDA. Additional information is available in Title 21
of the Code of Federal Regulations (21 CFR) Parts 310 and 330-358, which contain
FDA's regulations on over-the-counter drugs.

This letter is not intended to be an all-inclusive review of your web site and
products your firm markets. It is your responsibility to ensure that all
products marketed by your firm comply with the Act and its implementing

If you need additional information or have questions concerning any products
distributed through your web site, please contact FDA.

You may reach FDA electronically (e-mail) at Kenneth.Taylor(a)CFSAN.FDA.GOV, or
you may respond in writing to Kenneth M. P. Taylor, PhD, Chemist, Food and Drug
Administration, Division of Dietary Supplement Programs, 5100 Paint Branch Pkwy,
College Park, MD 20740-3835. If you have any questions concerning this letter,
please contact Dr Taylor at 301-436-1439.

Susan J. Walker, MD

Division of Dietary Supplement Programs
Office of Nutritional Products, Labeling and Dietary Supplements
Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
This page was revised on October 5, 2005.


Your Guide to Health Fraud- and Quackery-Related Legal Matters
Department of Health and Human Services
Public Health Service

Food and Drug Administration
Chicago District
550 West Jackson Blvd., 15th Floor
Chicago, IL 60661
Telephone: 312-353-5863
September 21, 2006



Joseph M. Mercola, D.O.
Optimal Wellness Center
1443 West Schaumburg Road, Suite 250
Schaumburg, IL 60194

Dear Dr. Mercola:
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) conducted an inspection at your facility
at the above address on April 24, 2006. During that inspection, the investigator
collected various product labels including, but not limited to, the following
products: Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, Fresh Shores Extra Virgin
Coconut Oil, Momentum Health Products&trade; Vitamin K2&trade;, and Momentum
Health Products&trade; Cardio Essentials&trade; Nattokinase NSK-SD. In addition,
we reviewed labeling on your website at A review of this
labeling found that the products listed above are promoted for conditions that
cause these products to be drugs under section 201(g)(1)(B) of the Federal Food,
Drug, and Cosmetic Act (the Act) [21 U.S.C.321 (g)(1)(13)].

These claims on your labeling, including your website, establish that these
products are drugs because they are intended for use in the cure, mitigation,
treatment, or prevention of disease. The marketing of these products with these
claims violates the Act. You can find the Act and FDA's regulations through
links on FDA's Internet home page,

Examples of disease claims observed in your products' labeling, including your
website and product labels, include:

Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP

"In Japan, interest in chlorella has focused largely on . . . its ability to
neutralize or remove poisonous substances from the body."

"Eliminating processed foods with whole foods like chlorella will help to
virtually eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future."

Further, the main Chlorella XP page of your website
links to a page captioned "Chlorella Scientific Research" where several
publications reporting on human and animal studies of chlorella products are

Under each citation is an abstract of the publication. Many of the publications
cited and summarized on this page concern therapeutic uses of chlorella.

When scientific publications are used commercially by the seller of a product to
promote the product to consumers, such publications may become evidence of the
product's intended use. For example, under 21 CFR 101.93(g)(2)(iv)(C), a
citation of a publication or reference in the labeling of a product is
considered a claim about disease treatment or prevention if the citation refers
to a disease use, and if, in the context of the labeling as a whole, the
citation implies that the product is useful for treatment br prevention of a

The following are examples of reference citations on your website that are used
to promote Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP for treatment or prevention of
various diseases:

"Nutritional supplementation with Chlorella pyrenoidosa for patients with
fibromyalgia syndrome: a pilot study." Merchant RE; Carmack, CA; Wise CM.
Phytother Res 2000 May; 14(3):167-73. The abstract of the study on your website
states, in part: "Any amelioration of symptoms was validated and quantified . .
.. at clinic visits on days 0, 30 and 60 of the diet therapy. . . . After two
months the average pain decrease was 22%."

"Effect of dried, powdered Chlorella vulgaris on experimental atherosclerosis
and alimentary hypercholesterolemia in cholesterol-fed rabbits." Sano T; Tanaka
Y. Artery 1987;14(2) :76-84.

"Effect of hot water extract of Chlorella vulgaris on cytokine expression
patterns in mice with murine acquired immunodeficiency syndrome after infection
with Listeria monocytogenes." Hasegawa T, Kimura Y, Hiromatsu, K, et al.
1997 Jan;35(3):273-82.

"Augmentation of antitumor resistance by a strain of unicellular green algae,
Chlorella vulgaris." Tanaka K; Konishi F; Himeno K, et al. Cancer Immunol
Immunother 1984;17(2):90-4.

"Oral administration of Chlorella vulgaris augments concomitant antitumor
immunity." Tanaka K; Tomita Y; Tsuruta M, et al.
Immunopharmacol Immunotoxicol 1990;12(2):277-91.

"Oral administration of a unicellular green algae, Chlorella vulgaris, prevents
stress-induced ulcer."

Tanaka K, Yamada A, Noda K, et al. Planta Med 1997 Oct;63(5):465-6.

Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil

"Coconut oil is . . . uniquely rich in lauric acid, which is converted to the
same disease-fighting substance--monolaurin--that nursing babies derive from
lauric acid in mother's milk. Research has demonstrated coconut oil's
anti-microbial, anti-viral and anti-parasitical properties ...."

"Pure Virgin Coconut Oil: The Healthy Fat That ... Banishes Infection, And Heads
Off Heart Disease"

"The numerous health benefits of coconut oil are finally again reaching the
mainstream. Benefits like:
Reducing your risk of heart disease ...
Reducing your risk of cancer and degenerative diseases ...
Preventing infections due to harmful bacteria, viruses, yeasts and other
microorganisms ..."

"[H]elps you prevent heart disease, lower cholesterol...."

"[L]auric acid is the predominant type of MCFA [medium-chain fatty acid] found
in coconut oil . ... [A] great volume of research has been done establishing the
ability of lauric acid to fight dangerous micro-organisms ... like viruses,
bacteria, yeasts, fungi, parasites and molds .... Numerous studies have
indicated that many viruses are inactivated by medium-chain fats-viruses like
influenza, measles, HIV, herpes and cytomegalovirus."

Momentum Health Product&trade; Vitamin K2&trade;

"Recent research supporting vitamin K's usefulness against osteoporosis and
heart disease is now becoming too abundant to overlook . ... I now offer the
most potent disease fighting form of this vitamin available-Vitamin K2-in
supplemental form."

"[S]cientists are even looking at vitamin K to be the future of treating certain
kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease."

"Research shows that vitamin K regulates calcium and keeps it in the bones and
out of arteries-stopping heart attacks and osteoporosis at the same time."

"Health Advantages of Vitamin K2
....[P]revents Osteoporosis

"Prevention of atherosclerosis
"Inhibits cancer cell growth"

Momentum Health Products&trade; Cardio Essentials&trade; Nattokinase NSK-SD

"CardioEssentials is a much safer and effective option than aspirin and other
pharmaceutical agents to treating heart disease."
"With the discovery of nattokinase, we no have a safe, scientifically-proven and
natural way for millions to combat hardened arteries, heart attack, stroke,
angina, dementia and senility."

"While modern medicine has come up with several clot-busting drugs--they come at
a very high price.
Among them, tissue plasminogen activactors [sic] (t-PAs) lead the pack. Every
year, stroke and heart attack victims are administered t-PAs such as actiase,
urokinase and streptokinase. While these treatments do save between
300,000-500,000 lives annually, one dose of urokinase cost approximately $1,500.
Comparatively, CardioEssentials is ridiculously cheap.

"Prevents heart attacks, strokes, and blood clots"
"Lowers blood pressure"
"Minimizes joint pain in osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis"
"Decreases cholesterol"
"CardioEssentials contains a truly revolutionary and powerful enzyme called
nattokinase that has produced monumental success for dissolving blood clots!"

(under heading "Product and Dosage Information for CardioEssentials")

"Therapeutic dose (e.g., person under medical supervision w/high blood pressure,
risk factors for coronary artery disease, high risk for blood clots, DVT). 4,000
fibrin units per day.
Ischemic strokes (e.g., person at risk for ischemic, "dry" stroke, or who is
recovering from a stroke, transient ischemic attack, RND {reversible ischemic
neurologic deficit], etc. 6,000 fibrin units per day.

These claims cause your products to be drugs, as drug, as defined in Section
201(g)(1)(B) of the Act [21 U.S.C. 321(g)(1)(B)]. Because these products are not
generally recognized as safe and effective when used as labeled, they are also
new drugs as defined in Section 201(p) of the Act [21 U.S.C. 321(p)]. New drugs
may not be legally marketed in the United States without prior approval from FDA
as described in Section 505(a) of the Act [21 U.S.C. 355(a)]. FDA approves new
drugs on the basis of scientific data submitted by a drug sponsor to demonstrate
that the drugs are safe and effective.

These products are also misbranded within the meaning of Section 502(f)(1) of
the Act, in that the labeling for these drugs fails to bear adequate directions
for use [21 U.S.C. 352(f)(1)].

Please note that similar therapeutic claims on you web site were brought to your
attention in a letter from FDA's Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
dated February 16, 2005. In that letter, we notified you hat claims for several
of your firm's products, including chlorella and coconut oil products, caused
those products to be unapproved new drugs within the meaning of the Act. A copy
of the February 16, 2005, letter, which also provides additional information
elated to the Dietary Supplement Health Education Act, is enclosed for your

This letter is not intended to be an all-inclusive review of your web site and
products your firm markets.

It is your responsibility to ensure that all products marketed by your firm
comply with the Act and its implementing regulations.

Failure to promptly correct these violations may result in enforcement action
without further notice.

Enforcement action may include seizure of violative products and/or injunction
against the manufacturers and distributors of violative products.

Please advise this office in writing, within 15 working days of receipt of this
letter, as to the specific steps you have taken or will be taking to correct
these violations, including the steps taken to assure that similar violations do
not recur.

Include any documentation necessary to show that correction has been achieved.
If you cannot complete all corrections before you respond, we expect that yo
will explain the reason for your delay and state when you will correct any
remaining deviations.

Your reply should be sent to the

Food and Drug Administration,

Patrick J. Brown, Compliance
Officer, 550 W. Jackson Blvd
, 15th Floor, Chicago, Illinois 60661-5716.


Scott J. MacIntire
District Director

Enclosure: Ref. No. CL-04-HFS-810-134, Dated February 16, 2005.
This page was posted on October 11, 2006.

A Day with Joseph Weizenbaum
From: Happy Oyster on
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 21:36:47 -0700 (PDT), Jan Drew <jdrew63929(a)> wrote:

>On Oct 10, 2:50?pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)>
>Insults deleted.

The guide on how to survive

Rule #2

Do no think that you could discuss with
a member of the naturopathic mafia scene.

A) Logical thinking versus naturopathic mafia scene
B) Examples
EXAMPLE 1: "Jan Drew" <jdrew1374(a)>
EXAMPLE 2: "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <love22(a)>
C) Super-fairy-tales!

A) Logical thinking versus naturopathic mafia scene

Question: How do I know if someone is part of naturopathic mafia scene?

Answer: Well, they will not tell you, of course. So you have to see their
reactions to certain critical topics and/or patterns of rhetoric.

Question: Why is it impossible to discuss with a member of the naturopathic
mafia scene?

Answer: In a discussion you expect the others to weigh the arguments by
scientific facts, by logic, by mathemacical calculation.
In short: by sound thinking.

But the members of the naturopathic mafia scene do not accept
facts as these facts prove that they, the members of the
naturopathic mafia scene, are wrong.

As the kernal of the naturopathic mafia thinking is that "THEY"
are right, they MUST NOT accept anything else.

So they start to insult, talk in circles, go wild, bomb you with spam,
call your employer... and all those nice things, which the scene is
known for.

B) Examples

EXAMPLE 1: "Jan Drew" <jdrew1374(a)>

An amusing incident happened in 2009, when a person, who had shot more than
60,000 postings into the net, demonstrated, that she even is too stupid to count
to 2.

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 23:11:53 -0400, "Jan Drew" <jdrew1374(a)> wrote:
>[person who is stalked by Jan Drew for years] wrote in message
>On Jul 9, 8:51 pm, "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...(a)> wrote:
>> "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...(a)> wrote in message
>> news:rzd5m.6677$kA.770(a)
>> > Posted that Noah his son's birthday was 11/26/96 (my birthday).
>> > He has numerous posts that are [person who is stalked by Jan Drew for years]
>> > 2009- 1946 = 64 -in November. My math is not wrong.
>> > Thus, [person who is stalked by Jan Drew for years] is a liar.
>Since November 2009 is in the future, I will not be 63 until then.
>You are amazingly stupid.
>November 26th 2009 is in 2009.
>2009-1946 YOU will be 64, not 63. You are 63 now. On November 26, 2009 you
>will be 64.
>Thanks for proving you are a liar again.
>And, I am correct. You and you alone posted your birthday.

To make things a bit easier to see, this is a table of events.

A person born on 26.11. 1946 is on

26.11.1946 born
26.11.1947 1 year old
26.11.1948 2 years old
26.11.1949 3 years old
26.11.1950 4 years old
26.11.1951 5 years old
26.11.1952 6 years old
26.11.1953 7 years old
26.11.1954 8 years old
26.11.1955 9 years old
26.11.1956 10 years old
26.11.1957 11 years old
26.11.1958 12 years old
26.11.1959 13 years old
26.11.1960 14 years old
26.11.1961 15 years old
26.11.1962 16 years old
26.11.1963 17 years old
26.11.1964 18 years old
26.11.1965 19 years old
26.11.1966 20 years old
26.11.1967 21 years old
26.11.1968 22 years old
26.11.1969 23 years old
26.11.1970 24 years old
26.11.1971 25 years old
26.11.1972 26 years old
26.11.1973 27 years old
26.11.1974 28 years old
26.11.1975 29 years old
26.11.1976 30 years old
26.11.1977 31 years old
26.11.1978 32 years old
26.11.1979 33 years old
26.11.1980 34 years old
26.11.1981 35 years old
26.11.1982 36 years old
26.11.1983 37 years old
26.11.1984 38 years old
26.11.1985 39 years old
26.11.1986 40 years old
26.11.1987 41 years old
26.11.1988 42 years old
26.11.1989 43 years old
26.11.1990 44 years old
26.11.1991 45 years old
26.11.1992 46 years old
26.11.1993 47 years old
26.11.1994 48 years old
26.11.1995 49 years old
26.11.1996 50 years old
26.11.1997 51 years old
26.11.1998 52 years old
26.11.1999 53 years old
26.11.2000 54 years old
26.11.2001 55 years old
26.11.2002 56 years old
26.11.2003 57 years old
26.11.2004 58 years old
26.11.2005 59 years old
26.11.2006 60 years old
26.11.2007 61 years old
26.11.2008 62 years old
26.11.2009 63 years old
26.11.2010 64 years old

On the 26.11. 2009 that person WILL BECOME 63 years old!

But, see above, Jan Drew still insists:

>2009-1946 = 63. On oivember 26 of this year he will be 64.

Now, a person born on 26.11. 1946 is on the very day "26.11.1946" BORN.

1 year later it will be 1 year old:

26.11.1947 1 year old

According to my timeline at 26.11.2009 it will be 63 years old.

But Jan Drew insists on

On oivember 26 of this year he will be 64.

Will Jan Drew be able to point where in my timeline there is an error?

Will Jan Drew be able to explain it?

Or will she, as usual, bring nothing but more lies, insults, forgeries, or other

The answer is: Jan Drew still insists on her ***OBVIOUS*** false claim. So Jan
Drew is obviously not able to count to 2.

Would you try to discuss with a person who cannot even count to 2?

EXAMPLE 2: "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <love22(a)>

"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <love22(a)> is constantly bombing the net
with his *claimed* religious-based rhetoric warfare.

A list of typical quotes of Andrew B. Chung is irregularly posted.

Andrew B. Chung supports mass murder:

From: "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <love20(a)>
Subject: Re: Daily Spirit-guided WDJW health tip for 08/10/09
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 04:21:53 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <fa267b2a-e0e9-4dae-b4f6-ccea1c3830ca(a)>

Retiring people from existence in this world and taking them up to
heaven is not murder :-)

Would you try to discuss with a person who supports mass murder?

C) Super-fairy-tales!

All the aggression, all the so very primitive rhetorical tricks are only means
to become superior of others who have (more) scientific knowledge. This pattern
covers the whole naturopathic scene. That does not exist for itself, but is an
overlap of a much larger group: The WHOLE is a large group of people who are
incompetent, and - to keep their right to exist - they MUST be superior. So they
claim that thinking with their tummy ("Bauchdenken") is superior to science -
"as we all know!!!".

Any attempt to use scientific arguments for these people is a SEVERE threat,
because - if the scientific thinker were right, - they, THE STUPID, are worth
nothing. It REALLY is a fight for life. This is why they fight so fiercely, so

The intrigueing point is to see them at the rim of their world, half in the air,
half falling, paddling with all their force, because they SEE, that they are not
right, but they MUST NOT admit that to themselves. It is a psychical war, in
which they cheat themselves, AND THEY DO KNOW IT.

Talking normally to such people is absolutely useless. The only way to make them
see, is to push them to that rim, to really shock them, and then, PERHAPS, this
one or that one gets out of his mental prison. It is like deprogramming sect


M�rchen sind M�rchen, also nicht wahr.
�berm�rchen sind M�rchen, die wahr sind.
Und wenn sie nicht wahr sind, dann macht das gar nichts,
weil es sch�n w�re, wenn sie wahr w�ren.
Also denke und handle ich, als ob sie wahr sind.

Das ist die Wahnwelt, in der die Spezies lebt...
Das ganze Jahr ist Weihnachten: die Wunschzettel an den Weihnachtsmann werden
t�glich ausgef�llt und t�glich erf�llt.

Das Schlaraffenland, nicht als vorgefertigte Selbstbedienungslandschaft mit
e�barem Interieur, sondern eine vollumf�nglich - auf Bestellung! - vom Universum
(auf Befehl!) zu liefernde Realit�t --- hier, jetzt, heute.

Der Mensch ist nicht nur wieder der HERR der Sch�pfung (in Gottes Welt und in
Gottes Auftrag), nein, er hat Gott-F�higkeiten und regiert SELBER diese Welt:
"Ich und Gott haben beschlossen."

Da gibt es auch keine Medizin, sondern �bermedizin.

Wo in jedem Menschen das Universum lodert,
wo die Quantenphysik zur Quantenmedizin wird ---
werden Diagnose und Heilung zum Fingerschnipp.

Es werde Licht!

Aribert Deckers

hier geht's weiter !
[ HOME ]
Copyright � 2008
Aribert Deckers
Copyright � 2008
Antares Real-Estate
Jegliche Weiterverwendung der Texte von "Wehrhafte Medizin!" ist verboten.
Verlage d�rfen sich wegen der Nachdruckrechte per Email an mich wenden.
Aribert Deckers

A Day with Joseph Weizenbaum
From: Bob Officer on
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 21:30:44 -0700 (PDT), in,
Jan Drew <jdrew63929(a)> wrote:

>On Oct 10, 1:06?am, Happy Oyster <happy.oys...(a)> wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 22:00:02 -0700 (PDT), "trigonometry1...(a) |"
>> <trigonometry1...(a)> wrote:
>> >> 3. Requirement that there be some standard of efficacy.
>> >> For starters.
>> >The last requirement is evil, wicked, and corrupt
>> >when one looks how the EU is doing it regulation of
>> >supplements. It is all to easy for government to
>> >deny, drag their feet, and ignore the science and
>> >then demand excessive levels of evidence and/or
>> No.
>Posts up to 703 in 10 days.

Jan, who else cares?

Not his admin, because no matter how many complaints you make, it
seems that they are ignoring you whines.

Stop trying to be a fucked up control freak, and go back to being
just fucked up, please.

Bob Officer
Posting the truth
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