From: Jan Drew on
On Oct 10, 10:31�pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 10, 1:02�am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
>
>
>
>
> <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 9, 1:30�pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 9, 4:11�pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 9, 1:01�pm, catherine hoffman <choffman0...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 9, 12:28�pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > > > dietary supplements business. �Many products contain
> > > > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is. �A majority
> > > > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > > > WoW!,
> > > > > I know quite a bit about the FDA, but I didn't know that they did not
> > > > > regulate the supplements. Is that also true for MLM companies?
>
> > > > Its not they don't have enough authority rather they choose
> > > > not to enforce it.
>
> > > Incorrect. They do not have enough authority. DSHEA.
>
> > Rubbish. The DSHEA is a great thing.-
>
> The passage of DSHEA was riddled with clear conflict of interest of
> Orrin Hatch of Utah, which was, at that time, a major manufacture
> state of supplements. Hatch's son has been a lobbyist for supplement
> manufacturers.
>
> And, DSHEA gutted the FDA and FTC's authority. Said gutting lead to
> the death of a son of a friend of ours.

Another anecdote.

*Anecdotes are pure bullshit* according to the disbarred lawyer. Who
remained silent when disbarred.
But, comes one Usenet to shoot off his lying big mouth.

Now, watch for him try to change the subject to Stalking, etc.

From: trigonometry1972 on
On Oct 10, 7:31 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 10, 1:02 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
>
>
> <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 9, 1:30 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 9, 4:11 pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 9, 1:01 pm, catherine hoffman <choffman0...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > > > dietary supplements business.  Many products contain
> > > > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is.  A majority
> > > > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > > > WoW!,
> > > > > I know quite a bit about the FDA, but I didn't know that they did not
> > > > > regulate the supplements. Is that also true for MLM companies?
>
> > > > Its not they don't have enough authority rather they choose
> > > > not to enforce it.
>
> > > Incorrect. They do not have enough authority. DSHEA.
>
> > Rubbish. The DSHEA is a great thing.-
>
> The passage of DSHEA was riddled with clear conflict of interest of
> Orrin Hatch of Utah, which was, at that time, a major manufacture
> state of supplements. Hatch's son has been a lobbyist for supplement
> manufacturers.
>
> And, DSHEA gutted the FDA and FTC's authority. Said gutting lead to
> the death of a son of a friend of ours.

No laws are perfect. And all laws are made like sausage.
As to the death, it likely was an ephredra related.
Many of those who ran it problem i.e. death very took large
doses. Ephredra is in a class of drugs that have
a NARROW safety margin. It has been use to
good effect in persons with COPD in the past.
Though it had a dose standardisation issue.
Taking it as stimulant is not a wise action and
a clear misuse of it drug action.
Even the relatively safe stimulant caffeine
gets people into the hospital all the time.
I still say the "gutting" was a VERY good
thing overall. Remember Tylenol like products
have been damaging people for decades and
it still lacks black box warning.

I daily use materials that are preserved by DSHEA.
And they make a huge difference in my personal
quality of life and the effects are profound. We can
discuss specifics if you want. I can put a face
to the value of the DSHEA just as Mark seeks
to put a face to a specific (now banned) supplement's
risk.

Can we imagine ethanol and coffee/caffeine making
it to the market in the modern world? The
nervous nellies would have surely ban them.
As they in fact did over the objections of others.

I do agree to an extent that herbal substances
can contain powerful drugs and one needs to
be informed and take it slow. Nonetheless, it
can be useful to have an end run around
big pharma the ignorant MDs. And I
must admit most of my end runs haven't been
herbal but rather hormonal i.e. melatonin and
nutrient like i.e. betaine HCL. Just to mention
two items. Nonetheless the FDA has messed
with flavonoids in the past even though
they quite benign materials. They have
sought at times to restrict vitamin levels
in supplements to very low levels. There
is a history Mark and mainstream media
ignore of bad deeds by the FDA past. The
FDA banned folinic acid in the past.
Now it is the favored form of the vitamin
for some with a common metabolic defect.
Albeit it is under a new name and under
a patent by Merck as I recall. And though
it is available (again) OTC which is good.


leave it to a lawyer or ex-lawyer
to imagine more regulation is
the solution..................................Trig
From: trigonometry1972 on
On Oct 10, 7:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 10, 1:00 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
>
>
> <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 9, 1:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 9, 3:48 pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > > dietary supplements business.  Many products contain
> > > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is.  A majority
> > > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > > Ha unapproved drugs they call them. I'll bet
> > > > they include alot of perfectly safe ingredients
> > > > in their list of "unapproved drugs,"
> > > > I wouldn't trust most proposed reforms other than
> > > > perhaps a bit more funding and monitoring to prevent
> > > > pharma drugs and toxics being slipped in by
> > > > crooks.
>
> > > I would like to see:
>
> > > 1. Mandatory reporting of all adverse events, lawsuits, etc.
>
> > > 2. Complete disclosure of all ingredients, and banning the term
> > > "Proprietary bland" etc.
>
> > > 3. Requirement that there be some standard of efficacy.
>
> > > For starters.
>
> > The last requirement is evil, wicked, and corrupt
> > when one looks how the EU is doing it regulation of
> > supplements.
>
> I usully try to ignore the EU since there is enough action here.
>
> It is all to easy for government to
>
> > deny, drag their feet, and ignore the science and
> > then demand excessive levels of evidence and/or
> > wring their hands about safety to the point of
> > absolute stupidity.
>
> That is precisely what the FDA wrt Thalidomide.
>
> > Vitamins and nutrients are not drugs.
>
> However, when medical claims are made, they have to be substantiated
> by something more than saleshype.
>
> > Understand putting something on the market without
> > a clear claim should be an option as well.
>
> Caveat emptor.

The best rule especially when it comes to
regulation.

>
> > I do agree their should be full content disclosure.
> > And I believe the US FDA already has the power on that
> > point if they chose to exercise it.
>
> No, they do not. I have had this issue with the FDA and FTC and they
> do not have it.

You're German and a subject of the EU. The labels I see
here in the States are generally pretty complete.
It is the pharmacy meds that don't have the complete
accounting of contents as I recall. And if an active
chemical drug is slipped into a supplement and
it isn't listed it that is fraud. That doesn't require more law
for the product to be pulled.
This claim is just bureaucracy and its allies
seeking to build local empire.

>
> > racking the wine.............Trig- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

From: trigonometry1972 on
On Oct 10, 7:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 10, 1:00 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
>
>
> <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 9, 1:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 9, 3:48 pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > > dietary supplements business.  Many products contain
> > > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is.  A majority
> > > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > > Ha unapproved drugs they call them. I'll bet
> > > > they include alot of perfectly safe ingredients
> > > > in their list of "unapproved drugs,"
> > > > I wouldn't trust most proposed reforms other than
> > > > perhaps a bit more funding and monitoring to prevent
> > > > pharma drugs and toxics being slipped in by
> > > > crooks.
>
> > > I would like to see:
>
> > > 1. Mandatory reporting of all adverse events, lawsuits, etc.
>
> > > 2. Complete disclosure of all ingredients, and banning the term
> > > "Proprietary bland" etc.
>
> > > 3. Requirement that there be some standard of efficacy.
>
> > > For starters.
>
> > The last requirement is evil, wicked, and corrupt
> > when one looks how the EU is doing it regulation of
> > supplements.
>
> I usully try to ignore the EU since there is enough action here.
>
> It is all to easy for government to
>
> > deny, drag their feet, and ignore the science and
> > then demand excessive levels of evidence and/or
> > wring their hands about safety to the point of
> > absolute stupidity.
>
> That is precisely what the FDA wrt Thalidomide.

This wasn't due to the merits of the FDA. It was just
slower than the UK folks so the product hadn't gotten
approval. Had the timing been different and
it had landed on a different desk, the drug could
made to the market here and not there.

It is always easier and safer for the bureaucrats
to say no. But no is always the right answer.
There are reasons for GRAS type lists and
grandfathering. Is it perfect no but it is better
than the bad judgement and bias.

And by the way thalidomide made back on the
market after some foot dragging in places
i.e. the UK and deaths it could have prevented or at least slowed.
Remember it is anticancer med now days at least
off label. So thalidomide works as an example for
my side as well.

>
> > Vitamins and nutrients are not drugs.
>
> However, when medical claims are made, they have to be substantiated
> by something more than saleshype.
>
> > Understand putting something on the market without
> > a clear claim should be an option as well.
>
> Caveat emptor.
>
> > I do agree their should be full content disclosure.
> > And I believe the US FDA already has the power on that
> > point if they chose to exercise it.
>
> No, they do not. I have had this issue with the FDA and FTC and they
> do not have it.
>
> > racking the wine.............Trig- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

Life isn't so simple..............Trig

From: trigonometry1972 on
Reponse to Mark on the
posting were he says I am clueless.


First there is an issue of dose, it takes
less tocotrienols than tocopherols.
Further, tocotrieniols are native and even
the main form of the vitamin in some diets. That
it may conflict with some drugs doesn't make it
unsafe, it just indicates the dangers of those
drugs and those taking then should be advised
by the pharmacist or the Doctor. It looks more
like you want make the world safe for prescription
drugs, LOL.

And I would hope they have activity as that is
why I take 30 milligrams or so of tocotrienols.
Tocotrienols have potent neuroprotective
properties (PMID: 16923160) as well as anticancer properties.
Yet your (in that it is the model governance you
seem to prefer) regulation happy EU
bureaucracy "thinks" the racemic synthetic vitamin
E is an acceptable form. No matter it
likely worsens one's vitamin status and yet
would still speed the metabolism of
the pharmacy meds.

And as to vitamin E interfering in drug
metabolism, it is the tocopherol form that
is the most active when compare to tocotrienol
in altering drug metabolism according to some research
and it takes a really whopping dose in this animal model.
PMID: 15649653
This of course depends on which enzyme system
one looks at. And yes more research is needed
as it more research is needed when patients
take more than one drug together. There
are nearly endless list of drugs the alter
the metabolism of other drugs.

And the issue of multiple drug induce or inhibited
liver enzymes is common if you look a good
drug book. And it is one that patient does
well to pay attention as the Doctors don't seem to.
They just empirically titrate the doses and
hope for the best. By the time a patient hits
the Med Surg ward they can be on
quite a long list of meds.

The idea is avoid the Med Surg ward and
the polypharmacy seen in many patients
through the use of more natural means.
Tocotrienols are one of those means and
a good at that. And especially if one wants
to avoid the "blue ward" for the dementia
patients. It is claimed by some they respond
better to staff wearing blue, LOL.


More than a clue ............Trig
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