From: trigonometry1972 on
On Oct 12, 1:33 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
> "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |" wrote:
>
> > On Oct 12, 10:53 am, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > On the contrary, I understand the risks of allowing
> > > tocotrienols on the market.  They should be illegal
> > > because they pose an unreasonable risk.
>
> > I don't agree. If I was GAWD, I might limit
> > the available dose to 100 mgs for now. There is a need for
> > at more research I will admit.
>
> That's a far movement from "obviously safe".
> In the absence of more data on the risks,
> it seems premature to allow them on the market.
> They are not "obviously safe", and in fact are
> obviously hazardous.
>
> > There are risks from not allowing them on the market
> > as well. And given it the valuable properties by
> > way of apoptosis in cancers and its power
> > as antioxidant in some tissues. The balance of the risk of
> > oxidative stress on the liver needs to be
> > looked at. Your paper is on in vitro work not in vivo.
> > I was more concerned by the research I cited on
> > the murine subjects.
>
> > We are going to disagree.......................Trig
>
> If they are to be used as an apoptosis modulator
> in cancer therapy, that's not a nutritional purpose.
> That's a drug purpose, and they should be treated
> to the same clinical trials used for verifying
> the safety and efficacy of any other drug.
> I'd have no objection to making them available
> by prescription.
>
> I do object to making them available as supplements
> for self-medication by people who are unaware of
> the hazards.  At this point in time, it appears
> that know one really knows the full extent of
> the risk.

I clearly don't object to self medication.
You forgot the clear hazards of going to
the MD. I spent thousands of dollars meds,
bad orthodox advice, and the failed
operation for GERD only to get better
by way a "quack" and self medication
with supplements to get completely better.
Standard orthodox advice is highly flawed
for GERD.

There is no clear line between nutrients and
therapy, in my view nor should there be.
In my experience MD and NP only get it
right about half the time. In with some
conditions they are wrong 99 percent of
time.

On the specific topic here is a need
for more research. But even for
nutritional purposes for some tocotrienol
are their vitamin E i.e. in people who
eat brown rice and use palm oil.

Yes my position moved. And it wasn't
the abstract you cited, it was one of
the ones that I provided to this discussion.


From: Mark Probert on
On Oct 12, 2:30 pm, "t" <tool...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:45271036-9513-443d-a3de-23280fbe0cf1(a)q14g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 12, 10:45 am, "t" <tool...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:445e3497-5789-42c0-a771-6f82104cb5ed(a)12g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> > On Oct 12, 5:00 am, "t" <tool...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > "Mark Probert" <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:e8cac353-a30a-41ea-8c30-65b59a632ae6(a)f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com....
> > > On Oct 11, 12:13 am, Jan Drew <jdrew63...(a)aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 9, 4:30 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 9, 4:11 pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Oct 9, 1:01 pm, catherine hoffman <choffman0...(a)gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > > > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > > > > > dietary supplements business. Many products contain
> > > > > > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > > > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is. A majority
> > > > > > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > > > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > > > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > > > > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > > > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > > > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > > > > > WoW!,
> > > > > > > I know quite a bit about the FDA, but I didn't know that they
> > > > > > > did
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > regulate the supplements. Is that also true for MLM companies?
>
> > > > > > Its not they don't have enough authority rather they choose
> > > > > > not to enforce it.
>
> > > > > Incorrect. They do not have enough authority. DSHEA.
>
> > > >http://www.naturalnews.com/z008269_health_medicine_organized_medicine...
>
> > > > Why organized medicine wants to outlaw nutrition and turn healers into
> > > > criminals
> > > > by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger, NaturalNews Editor
>
> > > No one wants to outlaw nutrition.
> > > Prove it.
>
> > But some want it to know its place. LOL
> > There are those who would suppress freedom of
> > speech on topic here in the States.
>
> > Just can me Uncle, Young Master..................Trig
> > As there are some who would suppress simple freedom here and everywhere..-
>
> Yes, Jan Drew, who tells people to shut up and posts their personal
> information, you, etc.
>
> I have never seen an evidence based poster who does what you and your
> ilk do.-

So?

Once again you screwed up the attributions. This is demonstrative of a
borderline personality.

From: Mark Thorson on
"trigonometry1972(a)gmail.com |" wrote:
>
> Yes my position moved. And it wasn't
> the abstract you cited, it was one of
> the ones that I provided to this discussion.

The one about the liver lesions? Even I didn't
know about that one. If tocotrienols start to
get any traction in the alternative medicine
community, I'll have to do a thorough literature
search on its safety issues. It looks really bad.

With regard to the line between nutrients and
drugs, the same compound can be both. Tryptophan
is an essential amino acid, so there is a nutritional
requirement for it. Usually that comes from a
balanced source of amino acids, like meat or eggs.
But when that one amino acid is isolated by itself
and used for a specific non-nutritional purpose
like as an aid to sleep, it's being used as a drug.
(Tryptophan is a precursor to important
neurotransmitters.) Pure tryptophan supplements
and other isolated "nutrients" with claimed specific
drug-like uses should be regulated as drugs. That
would have prevented the epidemic of eosinophilic
myalgia caused by tryptophan supplements 20 years
ago.
From: PeterB on
On Oct 12, 2:18 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 12, 12:43 pm, PeterB <p...(a)mytrashmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 10, 10:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 10, 1:00 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 9, 1:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 9, 3:48 pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > > > > dietary supplements business.  Many products contain
> > > > > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is.  A majority
> > > > > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > > > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > > > > Ha unapproved drugs they call them. I'll bet
> > > > > > they include alot of perfectly safe ingredients
> > > > > > in their list of "unapproved drugs,"
> > > > > > I wouldn't trust most proposed reforms other than
> > > > > > perhaps a bit more funding and monitoring to prevent
> > > > > > pharma drugs and toxics being slipped in by
> > > > > > crooks.
>
> > > > > I would like to see:
>
> > > > > 1. Mandatory reporting of all adverse events, lawsuits, etc.
>
> > > > > 2. Complete disclosure of all ingredients, and banning the term
> > > > > "Proprietary bland" etc.
>
> > > > > 3. Requirement that there be some standard of efficacy.
>
> > > > > For starters.
>
> > > > The last requirement is evil, wicked, and corrupt
> > > > when one looks how the EU is doing it regulation of
> > > > supplements.
>
> > > I usully try to ignore the EU since there is enough action here.
>
> > > It is all to easy for government to
>
> > > > deny, drag their feet, and ignore the science and
> > > > then demand excessive levels of evidence and/or
> > > > wring their hands about safety to the point of
> > > > absolute stupidity.
>
> > > That is precisely what the FDA wrt Thalidomide.
>
> > > > Vitamins and nutrients are not drugs.
>
> > > However, when medical claims are made, they have to be substantiated
> > > by something more than saleshype.
>
> > > > Understand putting something on the market without
> > > > a clear claim should be an option as well.
>
> > > Caveat emptor.
>
> > > > I do agree their should be full content disclosure.
> > > > And I believe the US FDA already has the power on that
> > > > point if they chose to exercise it.
>
> > > No, they do not. I have had this issue with the FDA and FTC and
> > > they do not have it.
>
> > FDA may not have unique enforcement over supplements, but they have
> > the power to warn the public about products (herbs, for instance) they
> > consider potentially harmful.  For example, Kava.   Why isn't FDA
> > warning about more than a tiny percentage of supplements?  
>
> Most supplements are "do nothings", thus neither harmful or
> beneficial for most people. The FDA, wisely, stays out of this
> quagmire.

False. Most dietary supplements are designed to improve overall
nutritional status and do so. The term "do nothing" more aptly
describes prescription drugs which, except for their ability to cause
dangerous side effects, fail to treat or prevent almost any disease.
If I'm wrong, where is the published evidence? Oh, that's right. You
don't believe in the medical literature.

> > It's because, despite decades of use by the public, there is little
> > evidence of harm exceeding low-level allergic reactions in the vast
> > majority of such products.  Even Kava is not proven to be harmful in
> > isolation from pre-existing hepatic disease or the use of alcohol.  As
> > for FTC, it's scope of powers combined with DSHEA does provide a
> > framework for safety that has been working just fine.   Your sponsors
> > may not like it, but that's too bad.
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/f569f86c8ed22f4e-
>
> Prove I have sponsors. Oh, that is right, I gave you the opportunity
> to do so, and make some money while doing it, and you weaseled
> out of it.

Your own words prove it. As someone famously once said, "You cannot
serve two masters."

From: PeterB on
On Oct 12, 3:47 pm, Happy Oyster <happy.oys...(a)ariplex.com> wrote:

nothing intelligible

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/f569f86c8ed22f4e?hl=en
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