From: PeterB on
On Oct 12, 4:02 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 11, 12:13 pm, "Existential Angst" <UNfit...(a)UNoptonline.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Mark Thorson" <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:4AD228D2.C51B845A(a)sonic.net...
>
> > > "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |" wrote:
>
> > >> And as to vitamin E interfering in drug
> > >> metabolism, it is the tocopherol form that
> > >> is the most active when compare to tocotrienol
> > >> in altering drug metabolism according to some research
> > >> and it takes a really whopping dose in this animal model.
> > >> PMID: 15649653
>
> > > The tocopherol forms do not activate the SXR
> > > receptor and the cascade of xenobiotic clearance
> > > mechanisms it controls.  The tocotrienols do
> > > activate SXR, and that is why they are a risk.
>
> > > If you don't understand that, you are completely
> > > clueless with regard to the hazard of taking
> > > tocotrienols.  And that's precisely why you need
> > > to be protected from yourself.  Even if you don't
> > > want this protection, there's lots of other people
> > > who might believe the line used to sell tocotrienols
> > > who do need this protection.  Tocotrienols inevitably
> > > will cause considerable mischief if made widely
> > > available to the public.
>
> > Sounds like this "mischief" can be used to good advantage, if strategized
> > correctly.
> > Xenophobia is not nec a bad thing.
> > Thus, Trig's point about who the real "culprit" is (drugs or trienols)
> > remains valid.
> > --
> > EA
>
> Here is the abstract to the article that Thorson is apparently
> referring. I am not going to leave to chance or his
> discretion as to whether it is cited or not.
>
> I add further comments after the abstract.
>
>  Drug Metab Dispos. 2004 Oct;32(10):1075-82.
> Epub 2004 Jul 21.
>
> Tocotrienols activate the steroid and xenobiotic
> receptor, SXR, and selectively regulate expression
> of its target genes.
>
> Zhou C, Tabb MM, Sadatrafiei A, Grün F, Blumberg B.
>
> Department of Developmental and Cell Biology,
> University of California, 5205
> McGaugh Hall, Irvine,
> CA 92697-2300, USA.
>
> Vitamin E is an essential nutrient with antioxidant activity.
> Vitamin E is comprised of eight members, alpha-,
> beta-, gamma-, and delta-tocopherols and alpha-, beta-,
> gamma-, and delta-tocotrienols. All forms of vitamin E
> are initially metabolized by omega-oxidation, which is
> catalyzed by cytochrome P450 enzymes. The steroid
> and xenobiotic receptor (SXR) is a nuclear receptor
> that regulates drug clearance in the liver and intestine
> via induction of genes involved in drug and xenobiotic
> metabolism. We show here that all four tocotrienols
> specifically bind to and activate SXR, whereas
> tocopherols neither bind nor activate.
> Surprisingly, tocotrienols show tissue-specific
> induction of SXR target genes, particularly CYP3A4.
> Tocotrienols up-regulate expression of CYP3A4
> but not UDP-glucuronosyltransferase 1A1 (UGT1A1)
> or multidrug resistance protein-1 (MDR1) in
> primary hepatocytes. In contrast, tocotrienols
> induce MDR1 and UGT1A1 but not CYP3A4
> expression in intestinal LS180 cells.
> We found that nuclear receptor corepressor
> (NCoR) is expressed at relatively high levels in
> intestinal LS180 cells compared with primary
> hepatocytes. The unliganded SXR
> interacts with NCoR, and this interaction is
> only partially disrupted by tocotrienols.
> Expression of a dominant-negative NCoR enhanced
> the ability of tocotrienols to induce CYP3A4
> in LS180 cells, suggesting that NCoR plays an
> important role in tissue-specific gene regulation
> by SXR. Our findings provide a  molecular
> mechanism explaining how vitamin supplements
> affect the absorption and effectiveness of
> drugs. Knowledge of drug-nutrient interactions
> may help reduce the incidence of decreased
> drug efficacy.
>
> PMID: 15269186
>
> The full article is available without charge
> by way of Pubmed. Just insert the PMID
> number and follow the link.
>
> I will agree a little with Thorson, in that
> tocotrienol likely shouldn't be in a multiple
> supplement aimed at for example a nursing home population
> which are often taking levels massive medication.
> And the pharmacist should advise people
> taking certain med that either tocotrienols or
> tocopherols that maybe a potential
> risk at least in theory. But banning of
> tocotrienols is immoral as it has it own uses
> which Thorson ignores. Thorson highlights
> a potential risk but he ignores the huge
> potential benefits. Clearly there is
> a need for a new thread of discussion
> on the potential of tocotrienols for
> variety of ailments.
>
> Anyway, what I see as reasonable approach
> is separate tocopherol and tocotrienols supplement
> containing all various forms alpha, beta, delta, and
> gamma.
>
> One form of the vitamin should be banned.
> That form is the racemic synthetic alpha tocopherol.
> Only one molecule in 8 has a fully natural structure
> and it has a shorter biological half life the
> rrr alpha tocopherol that is the natural form.
> Nor does racemic E or the rrr-alpha E have the
> full range of beneficial activities of mixed
> tocopherol formulations.
> Of course BASF would block the banning
> of the synthetic form at least until the
> Chinese drives them out of the synthetic
> E business. LOL
>
> Trig

That's an excellent review of this issue based on the available
science. Thorson will always take the *most* reductive approach
because it's simpler and he can understand it.


From: PeterB on
On Oct 12, 6:28 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 11, 12:13 pm, "Existential Angst" <UNfit...(a)UNoptonline.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Mark Thorson" <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:4AD228D2.C51B845A(a)sonic.net...
>
> > > "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |" wrote:
>
> > >> And as to vitamin E interfering in drug
> > >> metabolism, it is the tocopherol form that
> > >> is the most active when compare to tocotrienol
> > >> in altering drug metabolism according to some research
> > >> and it takes a really whopping dose in this animal model.
> > >> PMID: 15649653
>
> > > The tocopherol forms do not activate the SXR
> > > receptor and the cascade of xenobiotic clearance
> > > mechanisms it controls.  The tocotrienols do
> > > activate SXR, and that is why they are a risk.
>
> > > If you don't understand that, you are completely
> > > clueless with regard to the hazard of taking
> > > tocotrienols.  And that's precisely why you need
> > > to be protected from yourself.  Even if you don't
> > > want this protection, there's lots of other people
> > > who might believe the line used to sell tocotrienols
> > > who do need this protection.  Tocotrienols inevitably
> > > will cause considerable mischief if made widely
> > > available to the public.
>
> > Sounds like this "mischief" can be used to good advantage, if strategized
> > correctly.
> > Xenophobia is not nec a bad thing.
> > Thus, Trig's point about who the real "culprit" is (drugs or trienols)
> > remains valid.
> > --
> > EA
>
> Here is so far the most supportive bit of research for
> Thorson's position.
>
> 1: Arch Toxicol. 2009 Nov;83(11):1021-30.
> Epub 2009 Aug 11.
>
> Simultaneous induction of non-neoplastic and neoplastic lesions with
> highly proliferative hepatocytes following dietary exposure of rats to
> tocotrienol for 2
> years.
>
> Tasaki M, Umemura T, Kijima A, Inoue T, Okamura T, Kuroiwa Y, Ishii Y,
> Nishikawa
> A.
>
> Division of Pathology, National Institute of Health Sciences, Setagaya-
> ku, Tokyo,
> 158-8501, Japan.
>
> It was recently shown that 1-year chronic exposure of rats to
> tocotrienol (TT) induced highly proliferative liver lesions, nodular
> hepatocellular hyperplasia (NHH), and independently increased the
> number of glutathione S-transferase placental form (GST-P)-positive
> hepatocytes. Focusing attention on the pathological intrinsic property
> of NHH, a 104-week carcinogenicity study was performed in male and
> female Wistar Hannover rats given TT at concentrations of
> 0, 0.4 or 2% in the diet. The high-dose level was adjusted to 1% in
> both sexes from week 51 because the survival rate of the high-dose
> males dropped to 42% by week 50. At necropsy, multiple cyst-like
> nodules were observed, as in the chronic study, but were further
> enlarged in size, which consequently formed a protuberant surface with
> a partly pedunculated shape in the liver at the high dose in both
> sexes. Unlike the chronic study, NHH was not always accompanied by
> spongiosis, and instead angiectasis was prominent in some nodules.
> However, several findings in the affected hepatocytes such as minimal
> atypia, no GST-P immunoreactivity and heterogeneous proliferation,
> implied that NHH did not harbor neoplastic characteristics from
> increased exposure despite sustained high cell proliferation. On the
> other hand, in the high-dose females, the incidence of hepatocellular
> adenomas was significantly higher than in the control. There was no TT
> treatment-related tumor induction in any other organs besides the
> liver.
> Thus, the overall data clearly suggested that NHH is successively
> enlarged by further long-term exposure to TT, but does not become
> neoplastic. In contrast, TT induces low levels of hepatocellular
> adenomas in female rats.
>
> PMID: 19669731 [PubMed - in process]
>
> Still 0.4 percent of the diet is likely when adjusted
> to a human intake would be a multi-gram
> dose assuming a dry feed in the animal model.
> On the other hand if this a wet feed, there
> maybe a risk in the hundred milligrams
> dosage per this research. This is still not
> a low milligram dose. The highest dose
> I've seen used in research
> on humans is 200 milligrams.
>
> In that tocotrienol can lower cholesterol level,
> this suggests it can stress the liver. And
> I am not one who thinks lowering cholesterol
> is always beneficial.
>
> This does give a bit of pause concerning tocotrienols.
>
> Though it clearly doesn't change my view of
> gamma tocopherol as having merit as a supplementary
> material.
>
> Am I changing an opinion? I'll give that some time.
> Still given the potential I see in tocotrienols
> it should be used. The issue is the size of
> the population that should use it. Perhaps
> it is only a population needing
> a low risk anti-angiogenesis medication given
> how absolutely nasty one the conventional
> anti-angiogenesis meds is.
>
> some back-pedaling on my part.............Trig

A thoughtful response, Trig. I don't agree you are back pedaling.
Complex medical issues don't lend themselves to an "either /or"
approach. This is why Thorson does not engage in a *discussion.* He
can't, or rather -- he won't.


From: PeterB on
On Oct 10, 10:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 10, 1:00 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
>
>
> <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 9, 1:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 9, 3:48 pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > > dietary supplements business.  Many products contain
> > > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is.  A majority
> > > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > > Ha unapproved drugs they call them. I'll bet
> > > > they include alot of perfectly safe ingredients
> > > > in their list of "unapproved drugs,"
> > > > I wouldn't trust most proposed reforms other than
> > > > perhaps a bit more funding and monitoring to prevent
> > > > pharma drugs and toxics being slipped in by
> > > > crooks.
>
> > > I would like to see:
>
> > > 1. Mandatory reporting of all adverse events, lawsuits, etc.
>
> > > 2. Complete disclosure of all ingredients, and banning the term
> > > "Proprietary bland" etc.
>
> > > 3. Requirement that there be some standard of efficacy.
>
> > > For starters.
>
> > The last requirement is evil, wicked, and corrupt
> > when one looks how the EU is doing it regulation of
> > supplements.
>
> I usully try to ignore the EU since there is enough action here.
>
> It is all to easy for government to
>
> > deny, drag their feet, and ignore the science and
> > then demand excessive levels of evidence and/or
> > wring their hands about safety to the point of
> > absolute stupidity.
>
> That is precisely what the FDA wrt Thalidomide.
>
> > Vitamins and nutrients are not drugs.
>
> However, when medical claims are made, they have to be substantiated
> by something more than saleshype.
>
> > Understand putting something on the market without
> > a clear claim should be an option as well.
>
> Caveat emptor.
>
> > I do agree their should be full content disclosure.
> > And I believe the US FDA already has the power on that
> > point if they chose to exercise it.
>
> No, they do not. I have had this issue with the FDA and FTC and
> they do not have it.

FDA may not have unique enforcement over supplements, but they have
the power to warn the public about products (herbs, for instance) they
consider potentially harmful. For example, Kava. Why isn't FDA
warning about more than a tiny percentage of supplements? It's
because, despite decades of use by the public, there is little
evidence of harm exceeding low-level allergic reactions in the vast
majority of such products. Even Kava is not proven to be harmful in
isolation from pre-existing hepatic disease or the use of alcohol. As
for FTC, it's scope of powers combined with DSHEA does provide a
framework for safety that has been working just fine. Your sponsors
may not like it, but that's too bad.

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/f569f86c8ed22f4e
From: PeterB on
On Oct 11, 12:05 am, Jan Drew <jdrew63...(a)aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 9, 4:29 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 9, 3:48 pm, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Oct 9, 12:28 pm, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Excellent article in New England Journal of Medicine
> > > > about contamination in the severly underregulated
> > > > dietary supplements business. Many products contain
> > > > dangerous, unapproved drugs, and yet the public is
> > > > largely unaware how bad the situation is. A majority
> > > > of the public and even a third of medical students
> > > > wrongly believe that supplements have to be approved
> > > > by a government agency.
>
> > > >http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2017&query=home
>
> > > > The dietary supplement industry is a dirty business,
> > > > sorely in need of reform.
>
> > > Ha unapproved drugs they call them. I'll bet
> > > they include alot of perfectly safe ingredients
> > > in their list of "unapproved drugs,"
> > > I wouldn't trust most proposed reforms other than
> > > perhaps a bit more funding and monitoring to prevent
> > > pharma drugs and toxics being slipped in by
> > > crooks.
>
> > I would like to see:
>
> > 1. Mandatory reporting of all adverse events, lawsuits, etc.
>
> > 2. Complete disclosure of all ingredients, and banning the term
> > "Proprietary bland" etc.
>
> > 3. Requirement that there be some standard of efficacy.
>
> > For starters.
>
> tryhttp://www.google.com/
>
> http://www.excelsports.com/catalog/73.pdf
>
> http://nexstepbiosciences.com/suofin.html
>
> Derived from chicken sternum cartilage, UC-II consists of undenatured
> (native) type II collagen, a revolutionary new dietary ingredient that
> works with the immune system to promote healthy joints and increase
> joint mobility and flexibility (FDA-notified and published new dietary
> ingredient).* Supported by six human clinical studies, including
> research at Harvard University Medical School, UC-II is the only
> source of undenatured Type II Collagen available as a powdered, shelf
> stable dietary ingredient (U.S. patents pending). Recognized to
> improve joint mobility, flexibility and promotes healthy joints
>
> Revitalizing Blend:
>
> Bromelain - Classified as an herb, bromelain is a sulfur-containing
> proteolytic digestive enzyme that is extracted from the stem and the
> fruit of the pineapple plant (Ananas comosus, family Bromeliaceae).
> Bromelain is believed to be as effective as some commonly used
> nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory (NSAID) medications (such as ibuprofen
> and diclofenac) for reducing pain associated with osteoarthritis.
> Similarly, studies suggest that bromelain may also help reduce the
> pain associated with rheumatoid arthritis.
>
> Research indicates that long-standing use of bromelain is helpful in
> the treatment for other connective tissue disorders including
> scleroderma, bursitis, and tendonitis. Bromelain is useful in the
> treatment of a wide range of conditions, but it is particularly
> effective in relieving inflammation associated with infection and
> physical injuries
>
> Papain - Papain is a proteolytic ("protein digesting") enzyme this is
> produced by extracting techniques from the unripe papaya (pawpaw).
> It's natural and safe. Papain is used to relieve inflammation and to
> improve healing. Additionally, it is being studied for relief of
> cancer therapy side effects and rheumatoid arthritis.
>
> Boswellia - Boswellia is an Ayurvedic plant that contains anti-
> inflammatory triterpenoids called boswellic acids. Boswellic acid and
> its derivatives have anti-inflammation. properties as it inhibits
> proinflammatory 5-lipoxygenase chemicals and blocks leukotriene
> synthesis.
>
> Feverfew - Feverfew ( Tanacetum parthenium ), a member of the
> sunflower family, has been used for centuries in Europe as a remedy
> for headaches, arthritis, and inflammation. Recent laboratory studies
> have shown that feverfew can reduce inflammation and prevent blood
> vessel constriction.
>
> Cayenne - Cayenne pepper (also called Capsicum frutescens) is a
> stimulating herb made from the dried pods of chili peppers and is used
> as both a medicinal and nutritional herb. It is a very high source of
> vitamins and is rich in organic calcium and potassium. Widely
> recognized today for improving circulation, stimulating blood flow and
> reliving chronic pain.
>
> Turmeric (Curcuma longa)- is a rhizomatous herbaceous perennial plant.
> Recent findings from animal and laboratory studies support that a
> chemical found in turmeric provides anti-inflammatory and anticancer
> properties. It contains a mixture or powerful phytonutrients known as
> curcuminoids which posses anti-inflammatory properties seen to benefit
> joint and connective tissue health. A recent issue of Arthritis &
> Rheumatism, highlighted a published study showing the effectiveness of
> Curcumin in the reduction of joint inflammation, and recommended
> clinical trials for the treatment of arthritis.

Good list, Jan. I used Bromelain and Papain together for a headache
recently and it was gone in a hurry. These things work if you give
them a chance!


From: PeterB on
On Oct 12, 2:44 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 11, 12:42 pm, Bob Officer <boboffic...(a)127.0.0.7> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 04:21:18 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
> > "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |" <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> Derived from chicken sternum cartilage, UC-II consists of undenatured
> > >> (native) type II collagen, a revolutionary new dietary ingredient that
> > >> works with the immune system to promote healthy joints and increase
> > >> joint mobility and flexibility (FDA-notified and published new dietary
> > >> ingredient).* Supported by six human clinical studies, including
> > >> research at Harvard University Medical School, UC-II is the only
> > >> source of undenatured Type II Collagen available as a powdered, shelf
> > >> stable dietary ingredient (U.S. patents pending). Recognized to
> > >> improve joint mobility, flexibility and promotes healthy joints
>
> > >> Revitalizing Blend:
>
> > >> Bromelain - Classified as an herb, bromelain is a sulfur-containing
> > >> proteolytic digestive enzyme that is extracted from the stem and the
> > >> fruit of the pineapple plant (Ananas comosus, family Bromeliaceae).
> > >> Bromelain is believed to be as effective as some commonly used
> > >> nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory (NSAID) medications (such as ibuprofen
> > >> and diclofenac) for reducing pain associated with osteoarthritis.
> > >> Similarly, studies suggest that bromelain may also help reduce the
> > >> pain associated with rheumatoid arthritis.
>
> > >> Research indicates that long-standing use of bromelain is helpful in
> > >> the treatment for other connective tissue disorders including
> > >> scleroderma, bursitis, and tendonitis. Bromelain is useful in the
> > >> treatment of a wide range of conditions, but it is particularly
> > >> effective in relieving inflammation associated with infection and
> > >> physical injuries
>
> > >> Papain - Papain is a proteolytic ("protein digesting") enzyme this is
> > >> produced by extracting techniques from the unripe papaya (pawpaw).
> > >> It's natural and safe. Papain is used to relieve inflammation and to
> > >> improve healing. Additionally, it is being studied for relief of
> > >> cancer therapy side effects and rheumatoid arthritis.
>
> > >> Boswellia - Boswellia is an Ayurvedic plant that contains anti-
> > >> inflammatory triterpenoids called boswellic acids. Boswellic acid and
> > >> its derivatives have anti-inflammation. properties as it inhibits
> > >> proinflammatory 5-lipoxygenase chemicals and blocks leukotriene
> > >> synthesis.
>
> > >> Feverfew - Feverfew ( Tanacetum parthenium ), a member of the
> > >> sunflower family, has been used for centuries in Europe as a remedy
> > >> for headaches, arthritis, and inflammation. Recent laboratory studies
> > >> have shown that feverfew can reduce inflammation and prevent blood
> > >> vessel constriction.
>
> > >> Cayenne - Cayenne pepper (also called Capsicum frutescens) is a
> > >> stimulating herb made from the dried pods of chili peppers and is used
> > >> as both a medicinal and nutritional herb. It is a very high source of
> > >> vitamins and is rich in organic calcium and potassium. Widely
> > >> recognized today for improving circulation, stimulating blood flow and
> > >> reliving chronic pain.
>
> > >> Turmeric (Curcuma longa)- is a rhizomatous herbaceous perennial plant.
> > >> Recent findings from animal and laboratory studies support that a
> > >> chemical found in turmeric provides anti-inflammatory and anticancer
> > >> properties. It contains a mixture or powerful phytonutrients known as
> > >> curcuminoids which posses anti-inflammatory properties seen to benefit
> > >> joint and connective tissue health. A recent issue of Arthritis &
> > >> Rheumatism, highlighted a published study showing the effectiveness of
> > >> Curcumin in the reduction of joint inflammation, and recommended
> > >> clinical trials for the treatment of arthritis.
>
> > >Hello, looks like you have a list of things for
> > >inflammation and arthritis. I assume these
> > >are proposed low hanging fruit so to speak.
>
> > >Bowellia is good stuff and pretty gentle on the stomach.
> > >Feverfew has rather NSAID like adverse risk profile
> > >so I avoid it.
>
> > >I live on curcumin or should a say turmeric.
>
> > >One of the Marks made a comment about
> > >tocotrienols. And it made me good back
> > >and look at the research especially recent
> > >research a good thing to do now and then.
> > >I am going to increase my dose by several
> > >fold. I won't replace all my high gamma
> > >mixed tocopherols with but it looks like
> > >it has bang for buck. There is reason
> > >to believe tocotrienols should be
> > >really good in the context of inflammation
> > >and arthritis.
>
> > >And high EPA/DHA should be in the list.
>
> > >And thanks for bring up the pineapple enzyme.
> > >That is one I should experiment with.
>
> > >MSM also great supplement with relatively
> > >quick results on the order of a couple of
> > >weeks provided the dose is high enough.
>
> > >For some niacin and niacinamide in high
> > >dose can be hugely helpful though it
> > >can become toxic after prolonged use.
> > >Therefore having a good Doc experienced
> > >with it and the liver tests one should take
> > >would be a good thing.
>
> > >I suppose the point your making is that
> > >some of these are low hanging fruit
> > >if the government ever gets around to
> > >testing some of these materials in clincal
> > >studies. The problem is that it is possible
> > >to design experiments to fail. By way
> > >of the use of too few interventions, too
> > >low of dose, in the wrong conditions,
> > >failing monitor blood levels and dosage
> > >compliance, inferior forms such racemic
> > >vitamin E or isolated form vitamin E
> > >rrr-alpha E instead all from alpha, beta,
> > >gamma, and delta. Not mention that
> > >tocotrienols are often the clear winners
> > >over tocopherol for some things.
>
> > The real problem with herbal based self medication is the variability
> > of dosage. The plants at different stages of maturity will contain
> > differing amounts of active substances. Indeed, the amount of active
> > substance can vary from leaf to leaf on the same plant. There is no
> > standardization of dosage using herbal plants. Now add in seasonal,
> > and yearly changes and you have a complete recipe for a health
> > disaster.
>
> > Even the method of cooking a herb can make it more deadly.
>
> > Take a look at a common plant like the Rhubarb sometime.
>
> > The Stems are eatable. The leaves contain oxalic acid. Cooking the
> > leaves with a soda actually increases the toxicity of the leaves.
>
> > Using the roots can act as a powerful laxative.
>
> > The leaves are suspected to also contain senna glycoside
>
> > The same active compound found in Bemchi which is really not
> > effective as a treatment for anything except life.
>
> > This sugary tasting compound, senna glycoside, is found in this
> > common herbal remedy,Bawchi, is actually Psorolea corylifolia, it
> > will strip water from the persons system and slowly poisons the their
> > system. Long term use will cause permanent loss of kidney function
> > and death. It was used briefly as a natural dietary weight lose
> > supplement in the mid 70s.
>
> > >eating more of the chicken than most......Trig
>
> > --
> > Bob Officer
> > Posting the truthhttp://www.skeptics.com.au
>
> Yes, crude herbs can have a standardization problem.
> Hence the art and science of refining and assay is
> the remedy to an extent. There is such a
> thing as standardized extraction. Much drug
> company work is and has been in this field.
>
> If one has joint pain a boswellia concentrate
> with assayed level of the active chemical can
> be a useful help without the gut burning of the
> Cox1/ 2 inhibitor class meds or the
> deadly effects of Cox 2 meds. This herb
> has been in use for several thousand
> years. But did the big drug companies
> develop it, no. This is wildly wrong and
> proves the drug development pipeline is
> seriously flawed.
>
> And the FDA is not the body to do research.
> Nor should it be taking fees from the drug
> companies as that is a huge conflict of
> interest.
>
> Trig

I agree with your points. FDA approval does mean one thing, though.
Only drugs can "cure, treat, or prevent" made up diseases.

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