From: trigonometry1972 on
On Oct 11, 12:42 pm, Bob Officer <boboffic...(a)127.0.0.7> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 04:21:18 -0700 (PDT), in misc.health.alternative,
>
>
>
> "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |" <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Derived from chicken sternum cartilage, UC-II consists of undenatured
> >> (native) type II collagen, a revolutionary new dietary ingredient that
> >> works with the immune system to promote healthy joints and increase
> >> joint mobility and flexibility (FDA-notified and published new dietary
> >> ingredient).* Supported by six human clinical studies, including
> >> research at Harvard University Medical School, UC-II is the only
> >> source of undenatured Type II Collagen available as a powdered, shelf
> >> stable dietary ingredient (U.S. patents pending). Recognized to
> >> improve joint mobility, flexibility and promotes healthy joints
>
> >> Revitalizing Blend:
>
> >> Bromelain - Classified as an herb, bromelain is a sulfur-containing
> >> proteolytic digestive enzyme that is extracted from the stem and the
> >> fruit of the pineapple plant (Ananas comosus, family Bromeliaceae).
> >> Bromelain is believed to be as effective as some commonly used
> >> nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory (NSAID) medications (such as ibuprofen
> >> and diclofenac) for reducing pain associated with osteoarthritis.
> >> Similarly, studies suggest that bromelain may also help reduce the
> >> pain associated with rheumatoid arthritis.
>
> >> Research indicates that long-standing use of bromelain is helpful in
> >> the treatment for other connective tissue disorders including
> >> scleroderma, bursitis, and tendonitis. Bromelain is useful in the
> >> treatment of a wide range of conditions, but it is particularly
> >> effective in relieving inflammation associated with infection and
> >> physical injuries
>
> >> Papain - Papain is a proteolytic ("protein digesting") enzyme this is
> >> produced by extracting techniques from the unripe papaya (pawpaw).
> >> It's natural and safe. Papain is used to relieve inflammation and to
> >> improve healing. Additionally, it is being studied for relief of
> >> cancer therapy side effects and rheumatoid arthritis.
>
> >> Boswellia - Boswellia is an Ayurvedic plant that contains anti-
> >> inflammatory triterpenoids called boswellic acids. Boswellic acid and
> >> its derivatives have anti-inflammation. properties as it inhibits
> >> proinflammatory 5-lipoxygenase chemicals and blocks leukotriene
> >> synthesis.
>
> >> Feverfew - Feverfew ( Tanacetum parthenium ), a member of the
> >> sunflower family, has been used for centuries in Europe as a remedy
> >> for headaches, arthritis, and inflammation. Recent laboratory studies
> >> have shown that feverfew can reduce inflammation and prevent blood
> >> vessel constriction.
>
> >> Cayenne - Cayenne pepper (also called Capsicum frutescens) is a
> >> stimulating herb made from the dried pods of chili peppers and is used
> >> as both a medicinal and nutritional herb. It is a very high source of
> >> vitamins and is rich in organic calcium and potassium. Widely
> >> recognized today for improving circulation, stimulating blood flow and
> >> reliving chronic pain.
>
> >> Turmeric (Curcuma longa)- is a rhizomatous herbaceous perennial plant.
> >> Recent findings from animal and laboratory studies support that a
> >> chemical found in turmeric provides anti-inflammatory and anticancer
> >> properties. It contains a mixture or powerful phytonutrients known as
> >> curcuminoids which posses anti-inflammatory properties seen to benefit
> >> joint and connective tissue health. A recent issue of Arthritis &
> >> Rheumatism, highlighted a published study showing the effectiveness of
> >> Curcumin in the reduction of joint inflammation, and recommended
> >> clinical trials for the treatment of arthritis.
>
> >Hello, looks like you have a list of things for
> >inflammation and arthritis. I assume these
> >are proposed low hanging fruit so to speak.
>
> >Bowellia is good stuff and pretty gentle on the stomach.
> >Feverfew has rather NSAID like adverse risk profile
> >so I avoid it.
>
> >I live on curcumin or should a say turmeric.
>
> >One of the Marks made a comment about
> >tocotrienols. And it made me good back
> >and look at the research especially recent
> >research a good thing to do now and then.
> >I am going to increase my dose by several
> >fold. I won't replace all my high gamma
> >mixed tocopherols with but it looks like
> >it has bang for buck. There is reason
> >to believe tocotrienols should be
> >really good in the context of inflammation
> >and arthritis.
>
> >And high EPA/DHA should be in the list.
>
> >And thanks for bring up the pineapple enzyme.
> >That is one I should experiment with.
>
> >MSM also great supplement with relatively
> >quick results on the order of a couple of
> >weeks provided the dose is high enough.
>
> >For some niacin and niacinamide in high
> >dose can be hugely helpful though it
> >can become toxic after prolonged use.
> >Therefore having a good Doc experienced
> >with it and the liver tests one should take
> >would be a good thing.
>
> >I suppose the point your making is that
> >some of these are low hanging fruit
> >if the government ever gets around to
> >testing some of these materials in clincal
> >studies. The problem is that it is possible
> >to design experiments to fail. By way
> >of the use of too few interventions, too
> >low of dose, in the wrong conditions,
> >failing monitor blood levels and dosage
> >compliance, inferior forms such racemic
> >vitamin E or isolated form vitamin E
> >rrr-alpha E instead all from alpha, beta,
> >gamma, and delta. Not mention that
> >tocotrienols are often the clear winners
> >over tocopherol for some things.
>
> The real problem with herbal based self medication is the variability
> of dosage. The plants at different stages of maturity will contain
> differing amounts of active substances. Indeed, the amount of active
> substance can vary from leaf to leaf on the same plant. There is no
> standardization of dosage using herbal plants. Now add in seasonal,
> and yearly changes and you have a complete recipe for a health
> disaster.
>
> Even the method of cooking a herb can make it more deadly.
>
> Take a look at a common plant like the Rhubarb sometime.
>
> The Stems are eatable. The leaves contain oxalic acid. Cooking the
> leaves with a soda actually increases the toxicity of the leaves.
>
> Using the roots can act as a powerful laxative.
>
> The leaves are suspected to also contain senna glycoside
>
> The same active compound found in Bemchi which is really not
> effective as a treatment for anything except life.
>
> This sugary tasting compound, senna glycoside, is found in this
> common herbal remedy,Bawchi, is actually Psorolea corylifolia, it
> will strip water from the persons system and slowly poisons the their
> system. Long term use will cause permanent loss of kidney function
> and death. It was used briefly as a natural dietary weight lose
> supplement in the mid 70s.
>
> >eating more of the chicken than most......Trig
>
> --
> Bob Officer
> Posting the truthhttp://www.skeptics.com.au

Yes, crude herbs can have a standardization problem.
Hence the art and science of refining and assay is
the remedy to an extent. There is such a
thing as standardized extraction. Much drug
company work is and has been in this field.

If one has joint pain a boswellia concentrate
with assayed level of the active chemical can
be a useful help without the gut burning of the
Cox1/ 2 inhibitor class meds or the
deadly effects of Cox 2 meds. This herb
has been in use for several thousand
years. But did the big drug companies
develop it, no. This is wildly wrong and
proves the drug development pipeline is
seriously flawed.

And the FDA is not the body to do research.
Nor should it be taking fees from the drug
companies as that is a huge conflict of
interest.

Trig
From: trigonometry1972 on
On Oct 11, 11:49 am, Mark Thorson <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote:
> "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |" wrote:
>
> > And as to vitamin E interfering in drug
> > metabolism, it is the tocopherol form that
> > is the most active when compare to tocotrienol
> > in altering drug metabolism according to some research
> > and it takes a really whopping dose in this animal model.
> > PMID: 15649653
>
> The tocopherol forms do not activate the SXR
> receptor and the cascade of xenobiotic clearance
> mechanisms it controls.  The tocotrienols do
> activate SXR, and that is why they are a risk.
>
> If you don't understand that, you are completely
> clueless with regard to the hazard of taking
> tocotrienols.  And that's precisely why you need
> to be protected from yourself.  Even if you don't
> want this protection, there's lots of other people
> who might believe the line used to sell tocotrienols
> who do need this protection.  Tocotrienols inevitably
> will cause considerable mischief if made widely
> available to the public.

Try reading.

: Free Radic Biol Med. 2005 Feb 15;38(4):507-14.

Modulation of Cyp3a11 mRNA expression by alpha-tocopherol but not
gamma-tocotrienol in mice.

Kluth D, Landes N, Pfluger P, Müller-Schmehl K, Weiss K,
Bumke-Vogt C, Ristow M, Brigelius-Flohé R.

Department of Biochemistry of Micronutrients,
German Institute of Human Nutrition,
Potsdam-Rehbrücke,
Arthur-Scheunert-Allee 114-116, D-14558 Nuthetal,
Germany.

Metabolism of vitamin E is initiated by cytochrome P450
(CYP) enzymes usually involved in the metabolism of xenobiotics. Like
other CYP substrates, vitamin E induced a reporter gene under the
control of the pregnane X receptor (PXR) which regulates the
expression of CYPs including CYP3A4. gamma-Tocotrienol, the most
effective PXR activator, also induced endogenous CYP3A4 mRNA in HepG2
cells. Since these findings imply an interference of vitamin E with
drug metabolism it was deemed necessary to investigate their in vivo
relevance. Therefore, mice were grown for 3 months with alpha-
tocopherol-deficient, -adequate, and -supranutritional diet, i.e. 2,
20 and 200 mg RRR-alpha-tocopheryl acetate/kg diet, respectively. Half
of them received 250 microg gamma-tocotrienol/day for
the last 7 days. After 3 months, hepatic levels of Cyp3a11 mRNA, the
murine homolog to human CYP3A4, were about 2.5-fold higher in the 20
and 200 mg alpha-tocopherol groups than in the 2 mg group. After
feeding 200 mg alpha-tocopherol for 9 months, Cyp3a11 mRNA was 1.7-
fold higher than after 3 months. In contrast, gamma-tocotrienol did
not induce Cyp3a11 mRNA. This could be explained by its high
metabolism as demonstrated by the 20- to 25-fold increase in the
urinary excretion of gamma-CEHC, the final metabolite of gamma-
tocotrienol
degradation. In conclusion, alpha-tocopherol maintains an adequate
level of
xenobiotic-metabolizing enzymes. If fed in supranutritional dosages,
especially for longer times, alpha-tocopherol induces Cyp3a11 to
levels which might interfere with drug metabolism.


PMID: 15649653


Tocotrienols are safe at semi-reasonable levels and with
just a little discretion. It certainly no reason to ban them.
Though they may not play well with some of your drugs.
By the way why you aren't citing any references rather
than just asserting.
But it seems regular old tocopherol does some enzyme
induction as well.

Read the last sentence on the abstract.

Moreover they properties that are useful in the
face on a number of common maladies. If
you don't see that you're clueless.
From: trigonometry1972 on
On Oct 11, 5:44 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 11, 1:12 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
>
>
> <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 10, 7:31 pm, Mark Probert <mark.prob...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 10, 1:02 am, "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |"
>
> > > <trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > No laws are perfect. And all laws are made like sausage.
> > As to the death, it likely was an ephredra related.
>
> No, it was not.
>
Ha. The diminishing echo defense is in play it seems.
Or do you care to expand a bit.
From: trigonometry1972 on
On Oct 11, 12:13 pm, "Existential Angst" <UNfit...(a)UNoptonline.net>
wrote:
> "Mark Thorson" <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
>
> news:4AD228D2.C51B845A(a)sonic.net...
>
>
>
> > "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |" wrote:
>
> >> And as to vitamin E interfering in drug
> >> metabolism, it is the tocopherol form that
> >> is the most active when compare to tocotrienol
> >> in altering drug metabolism according to some research
> >> and it takes a really whopping dose in this animal model.
> >> PMID: 15649653
>
> > The tocopherol forms do not activate the SXR
> > receptor and the cascade of xenobiotic clearance
> > mechanisms it controls.  The tocotrienols do
> > activate SXR, and that is why they are a risk.
>
> > If you don't understand that, you are completely
> > clueless with regard to the hazard of taking
> > tocotrienols.  And that's precisely why you need
> > to be protected from yourself.  Even if you don't
> > want this protection, there's lots of other people
> > who might believe the line used to sell tocotrienols
> > who do need this protection.  Tocotrienols inevitably
> > will cause considerable mischief if made widely
> > available to the public.
>
> Sounds like this "mischief" can be used to good advantage, if strategized
> correctly.
> Xenophobia is not nec a bad thing.
> Thus, Trig's point about who the real "culprit" is (drugs or trienols)
> remains valid.
> --
> EA

Here is the abstract to the article that Thorson is apparently
referring. I am not going to leave to chance or his
discretion as to whether it is cited or not.

I add further comments after the abstract.

Drug Metab Dispos. 2004 Oct;32(10):1075-82.
Epub 2004 Jul 21.

Tocotrienols activate the steroid and xenobiotic
receptor, SXR, and selectively regulate expression
of its target genes.

Zhou C, Tabb MM, Sadatrafiei A, Grün F, Blumberg B.

Department of Developmental and Cell Biology,
University of California, 5205
McGaugh Hall, Irvine,
CA 92697-2300, USA.

Vitamin E is an essential nutrient with antioxidant activity.
Vitamin E is comprised of eight members, alpha-,
beta-, gamma-, and delta-tocopherols and alpha-, beta-,
gamma-, and delta-tocotrienols. All forms of vitamin E
are initially metabolized by omega-oxidation, which is
catalyzed by cytochrome P450 enzymes. The steroid
and xenobiotic receptor (SXR) is a nuclear receptor
that regulates drug clearance in the liver and intestine
via induction of genes involved in drug and xenobiotic
metabolism. We show here that all four tocotrienols
specifically bind to and activate SXR, whereas
tocopherols neither bind nor activate.
Surprisingly, tocotrienols show tissue-specific
induction of SXR target genes, particularly CYP3A4.
Tocotrienols up-regulate expression of CYP3A4
but not UDP-glucuronosyltransferase 1A1 (UGT1A1)
or multidrug resistance protein-1 (MDR1) in
primary hepatocytes. In contrast, tocotrienols
induce MDR1 and UGT1A1 but not CYP3A4
expression in intestinal LS180 cells.
We found that nuclear receptor corepressor
(NCoR) is expressed at relatively high levels in
intestinal LS180 cells compared with primary
hepatocytes. The unliganded SXR
interacts with NCoR, and this interaction is
only partially disrupted by tocotrienols.
Expression of a dominant-negative NCoR enhanced
the ability of tocotrienols to induce CYP3A4
in LS180 cells, suggesting that NCoR plays an
important role in tissue-specific gene regulation
by SXR. Our findings provide a molecular
mechanism explaining how vitamin supplements
affect the absorption and effectiveness of
drugs. Knowledge of drug-nutrient interactions
may help reduce the incidence of decreased
drug efficacy.


PMID: 15269186

The full article is available without charge
by way of Pubmed. Just insert the PMID
number and follow the link.

I will agree a little with Thorson, in that
tocotrienol likely shouldn't be in a multiple
supplement aimed at for example a nursing home population
which are often taking levels massive medication.
And the pharmacist should advise people
taking certain med that either tocotrienols or
tocopherols that maybe a potential
risk at least in theory. But banning of
tocotrienols is immoral as it has it own uses
which Thorson ignores. Thorson highlights
a potential risk but he ignores the huge
potential benefits. Clearly there is
a need for a new thread of discussion
on the potential of tocotrienols for
variety of ailments.

Anyway, what I see as reasonable approach
is separate tocopherol and tocotrienols supplement
containing all various forms alpha, beta, delta, and
gamma.

One form of the vitamin should be banned.
That form is the racemic synthetic alpha tocopherol.
Only one molecule in 8 has a fully natural structure
and it has a shorter biological half life the
rrr alpha tocopherol that is the natural form.
Nor does racemic E or the rrr-alpha E have the
full range of beneficial activities of mixed
tocopherol formulations.
Of course BASF would block the banning
of the synthetic form at least until the
Chinese drives them out of the synthetic
E business. LOL

Trig




From: trigonometry1972 on
On Oct 11, 12:13 pm, "Existential Angst" <UNfit...(a)UNoptonline.net>
wrote:
> "Mark Thorson" <nos...(a)sonic.net> wrote in message
>
> news:4AD228D2.C51B845A(a)sonic.net...
>
>
>
> > "trigonometry1...(a)gmail.com |" wrote:
>
> >> And as to vitamin E interfering in drug
> >> metabolism, it is the tocopherol form that
> >> is the most active when compare to tocotrienol
> >> in altering drug metabolism according to some research
> >> and it takes a really whopping dose in this animal model.
> >> PMID: 15649653
>
> > The tocopherol forms do not activate the SXR
> > receptor and the cascade of xenobiotic clearance
> > mechanisms it controls.  The tocotrienols do
> > activate SXR, and that is why they are a risk.
>
> > If you don't understand that, you are completely
> > clueless with regard to the hazard of taking
> > tocotrienols.  And that's precisely why you need
> > to be protected from yourself.  Even if you don't
> > want this protection, there's lots of other people
> > who might believe the line used to sell tocotrienols
> > who do need this protection.  Tocotrienols inevitably
> > will cause considerable mischief if made widely
> > available to the public.
>
> Sounds like this "mischief" can be used to good advantage, if strategized
> correctly.
> Xenophobia is not nec a bad thing.
> Thus, Trig's point about who the real "culprit" is (drugs or trienols)
> remains valid.
> --
> EA

Here is so far the most supportive bit of research for
Thorson's position.

1: Arch Toxicol. 2009 Nov;83(11):1021-30.
Epub 2009 Aug 11.

Simultaneous induction of non-neoplastic and neoplastic lesions with
highly proliferative hepatocytes following dietary exposure of rats to
tocotrienol for 2
years.

Tasaki M, Umemura T, Kijima A, Inoue T, Okamura T, Kuroiwa Y, Ishii Y,
Nishikawa
A.

Division of Pathology, National Institute of Health Sciences, Setagaya-
ku, Tokyo,
158-8501, Japan.

It was recently shown that 1-year chronic exposure of rats to
tocotrienol (TT) induced highly proliferative liver lesions, nodular
hepatocellular hyperplasia (NHH), and independently increased the
number of glutathione S-transferase placental form (GST-P)-positive
hepatocytes. Focusing attention on the pathological intrinsic property
of NHH, a 104-week carcinogenicity study was performed in male and
female Wistar Hannover rats given TT at concentrations of
0, 0.4 or 2% in the diet. The high-dose level was adjusted to 1% in
both sexes from week 51 because the survival rate of the high-dose
males dropped to 42% by week 50. At necropsy, multiple cyst-like
nodules were observed, as in the chronic study, but were further
enlarged in size, which consequently formed a protuberant surface with
a partly pedunculated shape in the liver at the high dose in both
sexes. Unlike the chronic study, NHH was not always accompanied by
spongiosis, and instead angiectasis was prominent in some nodules.
However, several findings in the affected hepatocytes such as minimal
atypia, no GST-P immunoreactivity and heterogeneous proliferation,
implied that NHH did not harbor neoplastic characteristics from
increased exposure despite sustained high cell proliferation. On the
other hand, in the high-dose females, the incidence of hepatocellular
adenomas was significantly higher than in the control. There was no TT
treatment-related tumor induction in any other organs besides the
liver.
Thus, the overall data clearly suggested that NHH is successively
enlarged by further long-term exposure to TT, but does not become
neoplastic. In contrast, TT induces low levels of hepatocellular
adenomas in female rats.


PMID: 19669731 [PubMed - in process]


Still 0.4 percent of the diet is likely when adjusted
to a human intake would be a multi-gram
dose assuming a dry feed in the animal model.
On the other hand if this a wet feed, there
maybe a risk in the hundred milligrams
dosage per this research. This is still not
a low milligram dose. The highest dose
I've seen used in research
on humans is 200 milligrams.

In that tocotrienol can lower cholesterol level,
this suggests it can stress the liver. And
I am not one who thinks lowering cholesterol
is always beneficial.

This does give a bit of pause concerning tocotrienols.

Though it clearly doesn't change my view of
gamma tocopherol as having merit as a supplementary
material.

Am I changing an opinion? I'll give that some time.
Still given the potential I see in tocotrienols
it should be used. The issue is the size of
the population that should use it. Perhaps
it is only a population needing
a low risk anti-angiogenesis medication given
how absolutely nasty one the conventional
anti-angiogenesis meds is.

some back-pedaling on my part.............Trig


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