A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet to treat type 2 diabetes
in [Diabetes Management]
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From: dorsy1943 on 12 Jun 2008 17:30 On Jun 1, 1:03 pm, jay <jaym1...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > I also absolutely believe > > that there are people who do great on a higher fat, low fruit grain > > and vegetable diet. But I also know that ornish, pritikin ,esselstyn, > > mcdougall get great results with diabetics on their diets. > > Have both types of diets been able to reverse atherosclerosis/plagues? > > > I agree with wes that there is fat you wear and fat you eat and > > definitely the fat you wear plays a significant role in diabetes > > because as people lose weight, their sugars typically go down as do > > other risk factors. > > It seems bears wear a lot fat each year by fall. I wonder why it isn't > detrimental to them compared to humans? Is it because their diet is > essentially low-carb? > > > I also know from personal experience and experimenting with the zone > > diet that eating fat along with a meal does often give lower blood > > sugar results after a couple of hours but I tested at three and four > > hours and found that eating fat along with carbs only postpones the > > highs--it does not eliminated them. > > Do fats eaten with carbs lowers and delay the BG spike or just delay > the spike? > > > For the record, I do not eliminate fat from my own diet. I eat a few > > nuts and seeds and use a very little olive oil and also eat a couple > > of ounces a day of wild caught sockeye salmon. > > Could you describe your overall diet? What kind of nuts and seeds? Why > very little olive oil? What are your cholesterol levels (trying to > lower mine)? Thx Percy's article says bears eat a diet of about ninety per cent plants. On one PBS special, it showed bears eating salmon in large quantities just before they hibernate. They leave the meat and selectively choose the fatty part of the fish. It also showed them eating a kind of insect which is present by the hundreds of thousands in their environment and which are eaten for the fat. Again just before hibernation. The narrator said these bears could not survive without the insects (each bear can consume about 40,000 insects.) Nature did not design us to hibernate so comparing humans with pre hibernating bears is useless. I eat mostly plants--vegies, fruits, beans, whole grains, occasionally some organic fat free yogurt, about two or three ounces of wild caught canned sockeye salmon (for B120 and a couple of ounces of clams a month, also because they are chock full of B12. On a day when I eat an ounce of clams, I do not eat the salmon. ) Since Jeff Novick gave the okay for nuts and seeds I eat them occasionally and only use a little olive oil because I do not like salads without a little oil. I try to stay away from polys and sat fats. I do not usually eat refined or processed foods and meat is an occasional treat. And I try to exercise often, including strength training at a gym. I also eat four meals a day and am considering going to five meals. Of course the calories are spread out over the day and the fifth meal just will mean that I eat less at each meal. I notice that the fewer calories I eat, the lower the sugar spike. I do not know if this is the optimal diet but it is one I can live with. No meds yet and diabetic since 1991. I am not optimistic about staying off meds forever, simply because I never heard of it. I can't tell you what cholesterol levels are because my doctor fired me last year and I have to find a new one. For me, the fats just delay the spike. Dolores
From: dumb_fishie99 on 12 Jun 2008 23:03 On Jun 1, 5:49 am, dorsy1943 <dtm...(a)usadatanet.net> wrote: > On May 25, 7:04 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Sun, 25 May 2008 06:57:16 -0700 (PDT), dorsy1943 > > > <dtm...(a)usadatanet.net> wrote: > > >On May 25, 4:48 am, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > >> I think we may have discussed this one before, but there are > > >> a few new people here. > > > >> Full text: > > >http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-2-34.pdf > > > >> Published: 01 December 2005 > > > >> A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet to treat type 2 diabetes > > > >> Abstract > > > >> Background: The low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (LCKD) may > > >> be effective for improving glycemia and reducing medications > > >> in patients with type 2 diabetes. > > > >> Methods: From an outpatient clinic, we recruited 28 > > >> overweight participants with type 2 diabetes for a 16-week > > >> single-arm pilot diet intervention trial. We provided LCKD > > >> counseling, with an initial goal of <20 g carbohydrate/day, > > >> while reducing diabetes medication dosages at diet > > >> initiation. > > > >> Participants returned every other week for measurements, > > >> counseling, and further medication adjustment. The primary > > >> outcome was hemoglobin A1c. > > > >> Results: Twenty-one of the 28 participants who were enrolled > > >> completed the study. Twenty participants were men; 13 were > > >> White, 8 were African-American. The mean [± SD] age was 56.0 > > >> ± 7.9 years and BMI was 42.2 ± 5.8 kg/m2. Hemoglobin A1c > > >> decreased by 16% from 7.5 ± 1.4% to 6.3 ± 1.0% (p < 0.001) > > >> from baseline to week 16. Diabetes medications were > > >> discontinued in 7 participants, reduced in 10 participants, > > >> and unchanged in 4 participants. The mean body weight > > >> decreased by 6.6% from 131.4 ± 18.3 kg to 122.7 ± 18.9 kg (p > > >> < 0.001). > > > >> In linear regression analyses, weight change at 16 weeks did > > >> not predict change in hemoglobin A1c. Fasting serum > > >> triglyceride decreased 42% from 2.69 ± 2.87 mmol/L to 1.57 ± > > >> 1.38 mmol/L (p = 0.001) while other serum lipid measurements > > >> did not change significantly. > > > >> Conclusion: The LCKD improved glycemic control in patients > > >> with type 2 diabetes such that diabetes medications were > > >> discontinued or reduced in most participants. Because the > > >> LCKD can be very effective at lowering blood glucose, > > >> patients on diabetes medication who use this diet should be > > >> under close medical supervision or capable of adjusting > > >> their medication. > > > >> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. > > >> -- > > >> d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg > > >> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com > > > >>http://loraltravel.blogspot.com > > >> Latest: Bangkok > > > >Alan, I have to disagree. > > > With whom? I'm just the messenger, posting the paper. > > However, I do believe that their research is valid and that > > their results are also valid. My only qualm would be the > > sample size; thus an indication that a larger study is > > justified. > > > >Fat causes insulin resistance. > > > That statement needs support. And, even if it is true, to a > > degree, it is not the point of the study. They assessed a > > dietary technique and showed the results. Are you saying > > their results were not as they report them? > > > > While the > > >blood sugars might be low, we do not know what is happening to insulin > > >since we have no easy way to measure it. Perhaps if one is becoming > > >insulin resistant, then even though the sugars are low, the pancreas > > >is pumping out more insulin. > > > >Here is something from page 192 of Dr. Atkins Nutrition Breakthrough. > > >He says: I get spectacular results in reducing or eliminating insulin > > >(I assume he means the shots) by instituting a low carb regimen. He > > >goes on to say, Unfortunately, the control is not always for a > > >lifetime, for some diabetics seem to "adjust" to the new regimen after > > >a while and spill sugar again--- meaning that they need insulin > > >again. It is my opinion that those on his diet have become more > > >insulin resistant. > > > >He says Pritikin's diet works because of the high ratio of complex > > >carbs to simple carbs. Then he surprises me by saying that the diet > > >with a high ratio of complex carbs to simple carbs is obviously the > > >diabetics diet of the future... > > > >Dolores > > > Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. > > -- > > d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg > > Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.http://loraldiabetes.blogspot..com > > >http://loraltravel.blogspot.com > > Latest: Bangkok Grand Palace- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > No. I am not saying the results were not as reported. I am saying > that a short term result, even of months or a couple of years might > not show increasing insulin resistance. I also absolutely believe > that there are people who do great on a higher fat, low fruit grain > and vegetable diet. But I also know that ornish, pritikin ,esselstyn, > mcdougall get great results with diabetics on their diets. > > I agree with wes that there is fat you wear and fat you eat and > definitely the fat you wear plays a significant role in diabetes > because as people lose weight , their sugars typically go down as do > other risk factors. > > I also know from personal experience and experimenting with the zone > diet that eating fat along with a meal does often give lower blood > sugar results after a couple of hours but I tested at three and four > hours and found that eating fat along with carbs only postpones the > highs--it does not eliminated them. I believe I read of the pizza > phenomenon wherein blood sugars seem low at first but rise to a great > degree four or five hours after eating pizza. > Sears' book also does not give insulin results at the 12 week point in > his study. For someone whose claim to fame is the control of insulin, > he is curiously silent on this. Did he find the insulin got worse on > his diet? > > For the record, I do not eliminate fat from my own diet. I eat a few > nuts and seeds and use a very little olive oil and also eat a couple > of ounces a day of wild caught sockeye salmon. > > Dolores- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I wonder what your bg test results would be if you tested at one and two hours after eating, not at 3 and 4 hours after eating. You're supposed to do it at one and two hours after eating.
From: Robert Miles on 13 Jun 2008 05:02 "dumb_fishie99" <dumb_fishie99(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3110df5f-1712-44af-9293-ca3acb39e444(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... On Jun 1, 5:49 am, dorsy1943 <dtm...(a)usadatanet.net> wrote: > On May 25, 7:04 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > No. I am not saying the results were not as reported. I am saying > that a short term result, even of months or a couple of years might > not show increasing insulin resistance. I also absolutely believe > that there are people who do great on a higher fat, low fruit grain > and vegetable diet. But I also know that ornish, pritikin ,esselstyn, > mcdougall get great results with diabetics on their diets. > > I agree with wes that there is fat you wear and fat you eat and > definitely the fat you wear plays a significant role in diabetes > because as people lose weight , their sugars typically go down as do > other risk factors. > > I also know from personal experience and experimenting with the zone > diet that eating fat along with a meal does often give lower blood > sugar results after a couple of hours but I tested at three and four > hours and found that eating fat along with carbs only postpones the > highs--it does not eliminated them. I believe I read of the pizza > phenomenon wherein blood sugars seem low at first but rise to a great > degree four or five hours after eating pizza. > Sears' book also does not give insulin results at the 12 week point in > his study. For someone whose claim to fame is the control of insulin, > he is curiously silent on this. Did he find the insulin got worse on > his diet? > > For the record, I do not eliminate fat from my own diet. I eat a few > nuts and seeds and use a very little olive oil and also eat a couple > of ounces a day of wild caught sockeye salmon. > > Dolores- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I wonder what your bg test results would be if you tested at one and two hours after eating, not at 3 and 4 hours after eating. You're supposed to do it at one and two hours after eating. -- Depends on where your peak is.
From: dumb_fishie99 on 13 Jun 2008 10:24 On Jun 13, 2:02 am, "Robert Miles" <robertmi...(a)bellsouthNOSPAM.net> wrote: > "dumb_fishie99" <dumb_fishi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:3110df5f-1712-44af-9293-ca3acb39e444(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > On Jun 1, 5:49 am, dorsy1943 <dtm...(a)usadatanet.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On May 25, 7:04 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > No. I am not saying the results were not as reported. I am saying > > that a short term result, even of months or a couple of years might > > not show increasing insulin resistance. I also absolutely believe > > that there are people who do great on a higher fat, low fruit grain > > and vegetable diet. But I also know that ornish, pritikin ,esselstyn, > > mcdougall get great results with diabetics on their diets. > > > I agree with wes that there is fat you wear and fat you eat and > > definitely the fat you wear plays a significant role in diabetes > > because as people lose weight , their sugars typically go down as do > > other risk factors. > > > I also know from personal experience and experimenting with the zone > > diet that eating fat along with a meal does often give lower blood > > sugar results after a couple of hours but I tested at three and four > > hours and found that eating fat along with carbs only postpones the > > highs--it does not eliminated them. I believe I read of the pizza > > phenomenon wherein blood sugars seem low at first but rise to a great > > degree four or five hours after eating pizza. > > Sears' book also does not give insulin results at the 12 week point in > > his study. For someone whose claim to fame is the control of insulin, > > he is curiously silent on this. Did he find the insulin got worse on > > his diet? > > > For the record, I do not eliminate fat from my own diet. I eat a few > > nuts and seeds and use a very little olive oil and also eat a couple > > of ounces a day of wild caught sockeye salmon. > > > Dolores- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > I wonder what your bg test results would be if you tested at one > and two hours after eating, not at 3 and 4 hours after eating. > You're supposed to do it at one and two hours after eating. > -- > Depends on where your peak is.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - She didn't say she even tried it at one and two hours, but there must be a reason people say that.
From: dorsy1943 on 13 Jun 2008 13:42
On Jun 12, 11:03 pm, dumb_fishie99 <dumb_fishi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Jun 1, 5:49 am, dorsy1943 <dtm...(a)usadatanet.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On May 25, 7:04 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Sun, 25 May 2008 06:57:16 -0700 (PDT), dorsy1943 > > > > <dtm...(a)usadatanet.net> wrote: > > > >On May 25, 4:48 am, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> I think we may have discussed this one before, but there are > > > >> a few new people here. > > > > >> Full text: > > > >http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-2-34.pdf > > > > >> Published: 01 December 2005 > > > > >> A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet to treat type 2 diabetes > > > > >> Abstract > > > > >> Background: The low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (LCKD) may > > > >> be effective for improving glycemia and reducing medications > > > >> in patients with type 2 diabetes. > > > > >> Methods: From an outpatient clinic, we recruited 28 > > > >> overweight participants with type 2 diabetes for a 16-week > > > >> single-arm pilot diet intervention trial. We provided LCKD > > > >> counseling, with an initial goal of <20 g carbohydrate/day, > > > >> while reducing diabetes medication dosages at diet > > > >> initiation. > > > > >> Participants returned every other week for measurements, > > > >> counseling, and further medication adjustment. The primary > > > >> outcome was hemoglobin A1c. > > > > >> Results: Twenty-one of the 28 participants who were enrolled > > > >> completed the study. Twenty participants were men; 13 were > > > >> White, 8 were African-American. The mean [± SD] age was 56.0 > > > >> ± 7.9 years and BMI was 42.2 ± 5.8 kg/m2. Hemoglobin A1c > > > >> decreased by 16% from 7.5 ± 1.4% to 6.3 ± 1.0% (p < 0.001) > > > >> from baseline to week 16. Diabetes medications were > > > >> discontinued in 7 participants, reduced in 10 participants, > > > >> and unchanged in 4 participants. The mean body weight > > > >> decreased by 6.6% from 131.4 ± 18.3 kg to 122.7 ± 18.9 kg (p > > > >> < 0.001). > > > > >> In linear regression analyses, weight change at 16 weeks did > > > >> not predict change in hemoglobin A1c. Fasting serum > > > >> triglyceride decreased 42% from 2.69 ± 2.87 mmol/L to 1.57 ± > > > >> 1.38 mmol/L (p = 0.001) while other serum lipid measurements > > > >> did not change significantly. > > > > >> Conclusion: The LCKD improved glycemic control in patients > > > >> with type 2 diabetes such that diabetes medications were > > > >> discontinued or reduced in most participants. Because the > > > >> LCKD can be very effective at lowering blood glucose, > > > >> patients on diabetes medication who use this diet should be > > > >> under close medical supervision or capable of adjusting > > > >> their medication. > > > > >> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. > > > >> -- > > > >> d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg > > > >> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com > > > > >>http://loraltravel.blogspot.com > > > >> Latest: Bangkok > > > > >Alan, I have to disagree. > > > > With whom? I'm just the messenger, posting the paper. > > > However, I do believe that their research is valid and that > > > their results are also valid. My only qualm would be the > > > sample size; thus an indication that a larger study is > > > justified. > > > > >Fat causes insulin resistance. > > > > That statement needs support. And, even if it is true, to a > > > degree, it is not the point of the study. They assessed a > > > dietary technique and showed the results. Are you saying > > > their results were not as they report them? > > > > > While the > > > >blood sugars might be low, we do not know what is happening to insulin > > > >since we have no easy way to measure it. Perhaps if one is becoming > > > >insulin resistant, then even though the sugars are low, the pancreas > > > >is pumping out more insulin. > > > > >Here is something from page 192 of Dr. Atkins Nutrition Breakthrough. > > > >He says: I get spectacular results in reducing or eliminating insulin > > > >(I assume he means the shots) by instituting a low carb regimen. He > > > >goes on to say, Unfortunately, the control is not always for a > > > >lifetime, for some diabetics seem to "adjust" to the new regimen after > > > >a while and spill sugar again--- meaning that they need insulin > > > >again. It is my opinion that those on his diet have become more > > > >insulin resistant. > > > > >He says Pritikin's diet works because of the high ratio of complex > > > >carbs to simple carbs. Then he surprises me by saying that the diet > > > >with a high ratio of complex carbs to simple carbs is obviously the > > > >diabetics diet of the future... > > > > >Dolores > > > > Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. > > > -- > > > d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg > > > Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com > > > >http://loraltravel.blogspot.com > > > Latest: Bangkok Grand Palace- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > No. I am not saying the results were not as reported. I am saying > > that a short term result, even of months or a couple of years might > > not show increasing insulin resistance. I also absolutely believe > > that there are people who do great on a higher fat, low fruit grain > > and vegetable diet. But I also know that ornish, pritikin ,esselstyn, > > mcdougall get great results with diabetics on their diets. > > > I agree with wes that there is fat you wear and fat you eat and > > definitely the fat you wear plays a significant role in diabetes > > because as people lose weight , their sugars typically go down as do > > other risk factors. > > > I also know from personal experience and experimenting with the zone > > diet that eating fat along with a meal does often give lower blood > > sugar results after a couple of hours but I tested at three and four > > hours and found that eating fat along with carbs only postpones the > > highs--it does not eliminated them. I believe I read of the pizza > > phenomenon wherein blood sugars seem low at first but rise to a great > > degree four or five hours after eating pizza. > > Sears' book also does not give insulin results at the 12 week point in > > his study. For someone whose claim to fame is the control of insulin, > > he is curiously silent on this. Did he find the insulin got worse on > > his diet? > > > For the record, I do not eliminate fat from my own diet. I eat a few > > nuts and seeds and use a very little olive oil and also eat a couple > > of ounces a day of wild caught sockeye salmon. > > > Dolores- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > I wonder what your bg test results would be if you tested at one > and two hours after eating, not at 3 and 4 hours after eating. > You're supposed to do it at one and two hours after eating.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - They are not so bad at one and two hours, but increase at three and four hours. You test at one and two hours because that is when you would normally peak. Why would you want to peak at four hours, about the time when you would normally be eating another meal and would want your blood sugar to be lower at the start of a meal? Dolores |